Larry Bramlage on breeding:

[DDT]

dray33

Jess talks a good game, and sues when he thinks he has been had, but those comments do not reflect his actions, he was the leading buyer at the Barretts 2yo sale, and was very active at Keeneland Sept 2007 yearling sale. He buys his horses in the USA 99% of the time, and some have inbreeding as close as 3X3 and 4X4 to Northern Dancer. Jackson can say what he wants but if one were to check the sales records it paints a different picture.

This is the real problem, owners and breeders saying one thing while doing another. Ethics in horse racing is a dream, there have been cheaters since day one whether racing or selling horses.

The Arnold chest and Knotts knees have not stopped Jackson thus far.

DDT

[dray33]

Honestly, I haven't a clue. He IS switching his buying to more overseas, but to what degree, who knows. And btw, its owners, breeders AND trainers saying one thing and doing another. It's all disgusting.

Ethics in horse racing is a dream, there have been cheaters since day one whether racing or selling horses.

Maybe. But remember: "Some men see things as they are and say 'why' - I dream things that never were and say, 'why not'." - George Bernard Shaw

[DDT]

dray33

The only way to have integrity in the sport is to have uniform rules with uniform enforcement. If we do get uniform medication rules, hopefully elimination of race day meds altogether, violators should be banned for life. This would keep the cheating to a minimum because who would risk a lifetime ban to try to cash a bet? A level playing field should be the goal, but, if Congress does mandate a racing commissioner, the first thing that is going to happen is the States are going to challenge the Federal government's right to dictate how they can conduct business, it will not be an effortless change. Race track management can barely fill cards now, what will happen when and if there is no race day medication permitted. Hopefully a cut back in racing, we are swamped now, but trying to get tracks to negotiate dates and work together has never worked, it might if that was the only avenue to profit.

I am all for any change that will eventually level the playing field, we will see.

DDT

[horsenuts]

One more thing, and Jess Jackson just reminded me of it today, speaking to congress. Unsound breeding practices includes too much, and too close inbreeding, and breeding speed to speed, has given us horses that have Arnold Schwatzenegger chest with Don Knots knees. Our bloodlines and breeding has made it so many breeders, like Jackson, go outside to Germany/Europe and Argentina... basic outcrossing, to add vigor and sturdiness to our horses. Unsound breeding mixed with masked performance and hidden conformation flaws mixed to leave us where we are today.

Overall I think Jess Jackson has been a positive for racing. He flushed out a 'den of thieves' who had been fleecing him at the sales since he jumped into the game and many in the industry were caught off guard and felt a touch guilty and embarrassed over beig outed. Of course kickbacks and phony sales and commissions have been going on since racing started. Jackson simply exposed many of the top players in the industry which is all good in the long run.


And I think Jackson has done his homework and believes that many of the American breeding practices are not conducive to the betterment of the breed. But there are still good American sires and crosses that produce a durable horse sometimes even a top horse such as Curlin. Many on this board had long advocated Smart Strike as a good value and sire when he was standing for around $35,000. Jackson recognized SS's solid stallion resume and didn't hesitate to invest accordingly. It will probably prove to be the best investment he will ever make in the horse business. And the way he purchased Curlin is how horses should be evaluated: on race day performance not in beauty contest amongst yearlings.

[soundfast]

Inbreeding to genetically sound individuals does not cause defects. I know for a fact that you can cross full brother and sister and get healthy quality offspring IF the parents are genetically sound because I have done it either accidentally or on purpose in rabbits,gerbils and dogs. Horses could be inbred closely if they are genetically sound. Inbreeding itself is NOT a cause of problems in Thoroughbreds or any other animals. There are quite a few sound stallions and there are quite a few stallions who sire sounder than average offspring. They deserve to be patronized. As long as breeders and others who have something to gain financially keep lying and keep denying the fact that heredity plays a role in unsoundness then the horses and some other people will suffer. Breeders need to stop blaming everyone but themselves. The high stud fee stallions are not as wonderful as their owners claim. For every so called BIG horse they sire(probably because of some great mare) there are many many others that do very little. Even at auction some of these commercial stallions are costing people money. You will not see them advertising how little some of their stallions offspring brought at auction or how many thousands of dollars some people who paid their outrageous studs fees lost selling yearlings by them. The people charging stud fees of $100K and up are greedy trouble makers whose stallions offspring generally make losers out of almost everybody. They are costing other breeders,buyers & owners some of whom will probably sour on Thoroughbreds and racing and no longer be the suckers they have been played for. They will either run out of money or wise up and not fall for things anymore. Heredity is important and always has been and everybody needs to face it. There are hereditary defects which include conformational faults,fragile bones,bleeding,etc. Selective breeeding for horses that have hard bone and other traits that help horses to stay sound in wind and limb is important and without it the breed can only go downhill even if all drugs are eliminated. Bloodstock advisors keep giving bad advice and telling people with deep pockets to breed to high fee stallions (when they may be a very poor choice) just because they have a high stud fee. They are harming the breed. People need to face the fact that more expensive does not mean better it just means their owners are greedier.

[ratherrapid]

my question would be whether "breeding" is just one more excuse for questionable training. how convenient is it to breakdown an untrained filly in the derby and be exonerated in the court of public opinion becauase everybody is screaming drugs and breeding? there were 19 others in there that finished just fine.

whether horses are more or less sound, unkown to me. but I think they're breeding better, more athletic horses then when i came in 20 years ago. Possibly we're getting Alyshebas by the dozens.

i'd wonder whether the new breed of better horse can be trained for injury avoidance. how can you even tell with the non-training/winstrol horses they're sending out?

and, can we really condemn any one stallion as unsound unless we first rule out the possible causes that are environmental?

[soundfast]

If environment was the only cause then the offspring of stallion A and stallion B would be equally sound and have a similar number of lifetime starts per runner. We would not have some stallions averaging over 20 starts per runner and others averaging less than 10. Every single horse has a different genetic makeup from every other horse. Environment and heredity both played a part in the fatal breakdown of Eight Belles and the many other horses that are euthanized on race tracks around the country. Eight Belles sire Unbridled's Song himself had 2 fractures and the second caused his retirement. She did not have streroids in her system but she did according to what I read have Bute which would have kept her from feeling the pain of an injury. Her heredity + her environment + drugs all seem to have contributed to her demise. If she had had the good hard bone that has kept many others sound through 30 40 50 or more starts then she would still be alive and racing. Say Florida Sandy had 98 starts and retired sound. Trying checking out his race record. My stallions dams offspring(9 winners) average 40 starts per runner lifetime so far and she still has 2 racing. My stallion had 53 starts and had 16 starts per year 2 years in a row and he is a Stakes Winner. My mare had 19 starts in one year and a total of 36 starts. There are many many horses whose heredity helped them stay sound for a long time. There are horses racing right now on the same drugs that people are claiming are responsible for unsoundness that have not broken down and have many many starts. Some horses who stay sound have the same environment and same drugs as those who break down. The difference is their heredity. They did not inherit the same conformation,bone strength,vigor,personality,etc. Each horse is a unique individual. No other horse in that race had the same pedigree or same genetic makeup as Eight Belles. The same trainer(who from what I read should not be getting on horses because he weighs too much which causes added stress to fragile bones) ran Proud Spell the day before and she won without breaking down. They had the same environment and the same drugs and raced over the same track but they did not have the same heredity.

[dray33]

The only way to have integrity in the sport is to have uniform rules with uniform enforcement. If we do get uniform medication rules, hopefully elimination of race day meds altogether, violators should be banned for life. This would keep the cheating to a minimum because who would risk a lifetime ban to try to cash a bet?

Well said. And ratherrapid is right, training has a lot to do with unsoundness too, except they are given more stock (horses) with issues. Out of every 10 horses I own/buy, at least 50% are bad breathers, or bleeders, and need surgery or something to help. They do myectomies, and the more modern/recent tie-forwards. There is rumor that several major trainers have taken to giving EVERY SINGLE horse in the barn myectomy/tie forward surgery before training. Grrreat.

[DDT]

dray33

Do these 50% come from the same sire or dam line??? I do believe that bleeding and breathing problems are inherited. It may sound bad that the leading trainers are doing the operations in advance of any condition manifesting itself, but it is just another added edge they are looking for and there is little evidence that it hurts the horses.

DDT

[horsenuts]

dray33

Do these 50% come from the same sire or dam line??? I do believe that bleeding and breathing problems are inherited. It may sound bad that the leading trainers are doing the operations in advance of any condition manifesting itself, but it is just another added edge they are looking for and there is little evidence that it hurts the horses.

DDT

Many stallions who had breathing problems themselves(roarers in particular) passed these traits onto their offspring and were seen as undesirables for breeding purposes 35 years ago. But somehow that all changed over that time period. With the advent of numerous breathing medications and surgeries poor breathing horses became acceptable and into the breeding shed they went often in vogue. Today, tie-back surgeries and the like are frequest(I'll venture over 50% off horses have them). Frankly, I find it pathetic but that is where we are now.


Decades ago horsemen(and I mean REAL horsemen not these frauds running around today posing as such known as 'bloodstock agents/advisors and trainers') looked at a horses neck and width under their jaw as that was more often then not indicative of a sound airway. Today it is an afterthought as 'surgery and medication can treat such problems that might arise from such faulty confirmation'. Again, I find it all pathetic and still opt for sound airways and look for such while dismissing horses that need medication and surgey for such. I recommend weeding them out of anyone's breeding stock program but it's hard to do because they are so common place.

[soundfast]

The bleeding and breathing problems are hereditary. Surgery can be avoided on horses with breathing problems according to what I read by using the Cornell collar. Most horses that trainers and vets call bleeders are not bleeders. They conveniently find a drop of blood so the vets will collect a check every time the horse runs and the trainer thinks he is doing what is necessary to compete. Lasix aka Salix is a diuretic. It makes the horse urinate and lose water weight. If the horse is given somewhat less water on race day it will be the same difference without the check to the vet. Losing too much water on a hot day could cause the horse to become dehydrated or have heat stroke.I do believe that getting a needle stuck in them every time they race may create an aversion to racing and vets in some sensitive horses. True bleeders will still bleed if they get only Lasix aka Salix. True bleeders have to have a second "bleeder" medication and they will noticeably bleed from the nose. One should not jump to conclusions though because a horse that is ill might possibly bleed if raced and once they recover from their illness will not bleed again. This is why in Australia a horse must be rested after bleeding once. If a horse bleeds 3 times in Australia they are barred from racing. Full disclosure in stallion ads would be nice but is unlikely unless somebody makes it mandatory. If stallion ads had to disclose all major faults as well as virtues that might be and probably are hereditary then mare owners could make their selection with the facts good and bad instead of seeing only what the stallion owners want them to see and buyers could get the facts on the stallions and know what problems to look for in their offspring. Full disclosure of any surgery as a foal or adult would help. The worst fault is fragile bones since it is responsible for the deaths of many horses.

[horsenuts]

The bleeding and breathing problems are hereditary. Surgery can be avoided on horses with breathing problems according to what I read by using the Cornell collar. Most horses that trainers and vets call bleeders are not bleeders. They conveniently find a drop of blood so the vets will collect a check every time the horse runs and the trainer thinks he is doing what is necessary to compete. Lasix aka Salix is a diuretic. It makes the horse urinate and lose water weight. If the horse is given somewhat less water on race day it will be the same difference without the check to the vet. I do believe that getting a needle stuck in them every time they race may create an aversion to racing and vets in some sensitive horses. True bleeders will still bleed if they get only Lasix aka Salix. True bleeders have to have a second "bleeder" medication and they will noticeably bleed from the nose. One should not jump to conclusions though because a horse that is ill might possibly bleed if raced and once they recover from their illness will not bleed again. This is why in Australia a horse must be rested after bleeding once. If a horse bleeds 3 times in Australia they are barred from racing.

Correct. By itself lasix does little good for most true bleeders. Clenbuterol is VERY popular(probaly used by 75% of trainers today) for breathing problems as are a host of other medicines including sputolosin(sp) and estrogen among others. BUT lasix does improve performance in MANY horses as any racing fan can atest often seen with 1st time lasix users and often dramatically improving performance at that. When lasix first became legal in some juridictions 30 years or so ago sharp trainers noticed how some of their horses 'relaxed' when the drug was administered thus performing better and opted too use it whenever possible. Not so much for the supposed ability to prevent bleeding but rather the 'lowering of blood pressure thereby relaxing the horse to perform better with improved performance often noticable and even dramatic'. Lasix has been with us ever sense. But I've long been for banning it for a multitiude of reasons.

[soundfast]

There are oral pastes which are supposed to calm a horse. My mare had 10 starts without Lasix and finished 2nd her last "clean" start. Her first start with Lasix she was second again. In checking her past performances I cannot see any improvement after Lasix was started.

[dray33]

It's either sire or dam. Actually, I think I might be conservative at 50%. I have a Menifee colt with McPeek. Got the call 2 days ago. Ulcer on palate, flipping and a bit of noise. Rood and Riddle for the op. My Forestry filly had breathing issues, we helped them with surgery. She is was getting faster and faster, ready for stakes company, she bleeds at her next when a prep race. Her breeze last week was fast, no bleeding, so she is ok. I can go on and on. I want to breed AWAY from these problems.

HAhahaHAhaha. Can you imagine how freakin' naive I am? Anyway, would be nice to try, if we had the data. So basically, we are all saying the same things.

Medications are for horses that need them. Horse that need medications should not be on the race track. That logic alone necessitates a ban on all race day medications, and medications that linger.

Good start.

[ratherrapid]

wow. we're back on drugs, again. txs horsenuts . Dray thinking maybe ur thinking may evolve on that--first good horse you have that bleeds. 3rd times the charm in Aussie land according to somebody on the thread.

i go off very small samples, but bleeding is somewhat related to training. several of my horses that bleed initially early in their campaings, somewhere after the 10th or 11th breeze i get less and less coughing and then none at all. Every breeze I use Xantex, which helps, and the rider is always instructed to abort at the first sign of unexplainable slow down. with my few (it's about two of them actually), once racing begins--they generally stop bleeding. i'd question that bleeding is hereditary. my guess-it starts with doing something that the horse's lungs are unready for, and then its there. Pleasantly Perfect was an interesting example. Should he be in the breeding shed?

I'd also wonder what Hancocks, Youngs, Bill Casner would have to say whether they're breeding weaker horses. Then Roar goes to stud and has numerous good winners. Everybody forgot they retired him with breathing problems. btw next one windy horse i buy at the sales they're going to take it back or get sued. i'm swearing on 3 koran's on that.