I guess it's all speculation until they actually find the gene and can create a marker test for it.
Early patterns of the TB.
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, Lucy
One interesting point that Haun makes about the early thoroughbred is that the pedigrees of the early foundation horses, like Herod, Matchem, Bartlet's Childers, Bald Galloway, Regulus, etc. show a consistent pattern of Middle Eastern blood on one of their 'X' lines, i.e. the line that they might have inherited their X gene from.
I guess it's all speculation until they actually find the gene and can create a marker test for it.
I guess it's all speculation until they actually find the gene and can create a marker test for it.
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Matchemforever
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Thanks for the correction on Pheasant.
I wasn't even looking at the dates...
.... knew there was a problem with the All Breed query but figured that's where I'd have to look for something that wasn't all TB. Teach me to stay up too late searching around pedigrees.
QH pedigrees, yes, depends on who you talk to some times. Here's a site I found where you can do some looking about QH pedigress and others:
http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/default.htm
Found that when I got curious about the TB in racing QH's.
Of course, there are probably caveats here too with the pedigrees!
I followed this from the article on Domino on the site above:
http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/arti ... wndash.htm
The author I think was expounding on the similarities in inbreeding on the dam side.
What I found in it, was the absence of what TB experts would call black type in the dam line of this horse. You get to the third dam, and you get something, then on to the fourth and not much. Yet this stallion was a good race horse and sire. Perhaps blood will tell and mares that may not have the desirable black type should not be so scorned? The author also is saying this sire has the LHG.
I don't have time to consider if this was the type of inbreeding used in the early formation of the TB or even if it was, if it was with deliberation.
I wasn't even looking at the dates...
.... knew there was a problem with the All Breed query but figured that's where I'd have to look for something that wasn't all TB. Teach me to stay up too late searching around pedigrees.
QH pedigrees, yes, depends on who you talk to some times. Here's a site I found where you can do some looking about QH pedigress and others:
http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/default.htm
Found that when I got curious about the TB in racing QH's.
Of course, there are probably caveats here too with the pedigrees!
I followed this from the article on Domino on the site above:
http://www.horsesonly.com/pursuits/arti ... wndash.htm
The author I think was expounding on the similarities in inbreeding on the dam side.
What I found in it, was the absence of what TB experts would call black type in the dam line of this horse. You get to the third dam, and you get something, then on to the fourth and not much. Yet this stallion was a good race horse and sire. Perhaps blood will tell and mares that may not have the desirable black type should not be so scorned? The author also is saying this sire has the LHG.
I don't have time to consider if this was the type of inbreeding used in the early formation of the TB or even if it was, if it was with deliberation.
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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aethervox posted:
A couple of my thoughts on this have previously been alluded to. Historically, we know that records dating to the foundations of the TB could very well be incorrect. Technology and science have made our world much more precise. Secondly, like human characteristics, TB physiology, conformation, and subtle physical characteristics as captioned above and in previous posts cannot as a rule necessarily be attributed to a certain individual or line of individuals. As history shows, the TB recipe may not have been passed along as completely and concisely as it should have been. This is why I have difficulty reaching too far back in pedigrees in an effort to identify characteristics and traits that the modern TB has drawn its character and athleticism from.
I recall the New Jersey Act as a response to the same questions regarding the American TB. I have not read the second Haun book so I'll take that challenge on next. That being said, I still think that tackling this issue with such accuracy is a stretch. I more comfortable with a broader view of TB evolution.
. . . Haun shows examples in the book, and it's pretty convincing. For example, Mahmoud had small, round, leaf-like ears and you can see similar ears on Northern Dancer, Holy Bull and Fusaichi Pegasus. . .
A couple of my thoughts on this have previously been alluded to. Historically, we know that records dating to the foundations of the TB could very well be incorrect. Technology and science have made our world much more precise. Secondly, like human characteristics, TB physiology, conformation, and subtle physical characteristics as captioned above and in previous posts cannot as a rule necessarily be attributed to a certain individual or line of individuals. As history shows, the TB recipe may not have been passed along as completely and concisely as it should have been. This is why I have difficulty reaching too far back in pedigrees in an effort to identify characteristics and traits that the modern TB has drawn its character and athleticism from.
I recall the New Jersey Act as a response to the same questions regarding the American TB. I have not read the second Haun book so I'll take that challenge on next. That being said, I still think that tackling this issue with such accuracy is a stretch. I more comfortable with a broader view of TB evolution.
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xfactor fan
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Genetics
The theory of ear shape and size as an indicator of heart size works if the heart gene and the ear gene are on the same X chromosome.
An example of linked genes can be found in humans. Hair and eye color are controlled by genes on Chromosomes 15 and 19 and they are fairly close together so that when the gene for hair color is passed to an egg or sperm, so is the gene for eye color. It's the reason why brown-eyed redheads are so uncommon.
See
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/993598918.Ge.r.html
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/Professional-resources/Education-resources/Big-Picture/How-We-Look/Articles/WTD041629.htm
Another example would be the link between white coat color and deafness in cats.
I think the science behind Haun's books is good, but agree that she presents limited examples. I understand why they don't publish in scientific journals (you pay the journal to publish your article, and in a lot of cases, they own the copyright), but I wish Haun would adopt a more 'scientific' style of writing about their research.
She could use a good editor/proofreader as well.
An example of linked genes can be found in humans. Hair and eye color are controlled by genes on Chromosomes 15 and 19 and they are fairly close together so that when the gene for hair color is passed to an egg or sperm, so is the gene for eye color. It's the reason why brown-eyed redheads are so uncommon.
See
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/jun2001/993598918.Ge.r.html
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/Professional-resources/Education-resources/Big-Picture/How-We-Look/Articles/WTD041629.htm
Another example would be the link between white coat color and deafness in cats.
I think the science behind Haun's books is good, but agree that she presents limited examples. I understand why they don't publish in scientific journals (you pay the journal to publish your article, and in a lot of cases, they own the copyright), but I wish Haun would adopt a more 'scientific' style of writing about their research.
She could use a good editor/proofreader as well.
Searching the net for nice pictures of different "types" of horses..
Here is a fine example of an Akhal-Teke, the modern Turk.
Breed description:
Body: The breed is distinguished by its tall, light and athletic body, standing 15 to 16 hands. Its long, slim body is tubular, well-muscled and slopes to a low-set, sparse tail.
Withers: high, long and well-muscled
Shoulder: long, slanted, with well-developed muscles
Croup: broad with well-developed muscles stretching to the hock
Head and Neck: The long and high set neck gives it a proud carriage. The head is light and dry with a lean lower jaw, usually straight or with a convex forehead. The ears are thin, mobile and high-set on a wide poll. The head is set onto the neck at an acute angle. The eyes are large with a somewhat slanting shape, which is sometimes compared to the look of a bird of prey.
Legs: lean and long with well-developed joints, firm and well-shown tendons, small and strongly built hooves. Legs stand parallel to each other.
Coat: thin and silky with a light mane and tail. The forelock and feather are absent or insignificant.
Colors: range from black to cream in great varieties, often with metallic shine of gold or silver.
Barbs; There seems to be different types here. There is the more primitive example(wild, some mustangs)
Then there is the "pure" Andalusian/Lusitano, a much larger and more ideal saddle horse.
I suspect that many of these types were used to an extent.
Here are some modern examples:
Breed Standards:
TYPE - Middleweight (weight around 500 kgs.) "Medium lined"; sub-convex profile (with rounded outlines); a silhouette that can be fitted into a square).
HEIGHT - Medium; at the age of six years, the average height, measured at the withers is 1.55m (nearest conversion 15.1hh) for females and 1.60m (15.3hh) for males.
COAT - The most appreciated and esteemed are all shades of grey and bay.
TEMPERAMENT - Noble, generous and ardent, but always gentle and able to support duress.
MOVEMENTS - Agile, elevated forward, smooth and having a great facility to carry the rider in comfort.
APTITUDE - A natural ability for concentration, with a great disposition for High School work; courage and enthusiasm for the gineta exercises (combat, hunting, bullfighting, work with cattle etc.).
HEAD - Well proportioned, of medium length, narrow and dry, with the lower jaw not too pronounced and the cheek inclined to be long. Slightly sub-convex profile with slightly curved forehead (in advance of the eyebrows' bones); the eyes, tending to an elliptical form, are big, alive, expressive and confident. Fine, narrow and expressive ears of medium length.
NECK - Of medium length, with fine hair line, deep in the base, well inserted between the shoulders, rising up arched from the withers without convexity, ending at a narrow and fine junction with the head.
WITHERS - Long and well defined, with a smooth transition from the back to the neck, always higher than the croup. On adult stallions is sometimes covered with fat but always prominent from the shoulders.
CHEST - Of medium size, deep and muscular.
RIBCAGE - Well developed, long and deep, slightly arched ribs obliquely inserted into the spinal column giving rise to short and full flank.
SHOULDERS - Long, slanting and well muscled.
BACK - Well placed, tending towards the horizontal and making a smooth connection between the withers and the loins.
LOINS - Short, wide, slightly convex, well connected with the back and croup with which they form a continuous line.
CROUP - Strong and rounded, well-balanced, slightly slanting. The length and width of identical dimensions; harmonious convex profile with the point of the hip unobtrusive, giving the croup a cross section of elliptical shape. Tail with long, silky and abundant hair gently emerging from the convex line of the croup's profile.
LEGS - The forelegs are well muscled and harmoniously inclined. Upper arm straight and muscular. Knees are thick and dry. The cannons tend to be long, dry and with well-pronounced tendons. The fetlocks are dry, relatively big and with very little hair. The pasterns are relatively long and sloping. The hooves are of good constitution, well formed and proportioned without being too open; the line of the coronet is not very evident. The buttock is short and convex. The thigh is muscular, normally short and oriented in such a way that the patella gaskin is in the same vertical line as the hip-bone, or point of the hip. The legs are normally long, placing the point of the hock in a vertical line with the point of the buttock. The hocks are large, strong and dry. The hind legs form relatively closed angles.
Now, here is my take on the Arabian.
I won't even look at the modern "show" strains because they obviously so unlike anything that you would breed for speed racing.
However, modern racing strains are different all together.
I was hoping to find something more about the legendary French Arabian Stallion Manganate, who looks VERY Thoroughbred to me. In fact, he is inbred to Denouste, who also looks this way.
Manganate
Denouste
I seem to recall reading about Manganate somewhere on the internet, and if memory serves me correct, there was a high suspicion of his purity.
I cannot seem to find that article.
If anyone can find some info on this it would be great.
I suspect some Munique blood and that could have been a result of the eastern trade and various crosses of Barbs, Turks, and Arabians already going on centuries ago, therefore creating a different type was used to form the modern Arabian racing strain.
I have always suspected that the "types" of Arabians used to create the Thoroughbred where probably the same.
There was just more Turk and Barb/Galloway/Spanish blood in the native British horse since they were already faster anyways.
More Modern Arabian racing strain photos:
A couple of last things.
The Connemara Pony is believed to be the nearest remnant of the Irish Hobby before significant Barb blood was introduced.
This is a modern Connemara Pony.
The Primitive Sorraia horse's ancestors are suspected to be the base strain for all native British horses.
I found a pic of a modern representative.
LOOK AT THAT HIND QUARTER!!
I could really use a hand about the racing Arabian strains here if anyone can assist. Thanks.
Here is a fine example of an Akhal-Teke, the modern Turk.
Breed description:
Body: The breed is distinguished by its tall, light and athletic body, standing 15 to 16 hands. Its long, slim body is tubular, well-muscled and slopes to a low-set, sparse tail.
Withers: high, long and well-muscled
Shoulder: long, slanted, with well-developed muscles
Croup: broad with well-developed muscles stretching to the hock
Head and Neck: The long and high set neck gives it a proud carriage. The head is light and dry with a lean lower jaw, usually straight or with a convex forehead. The ears are thin, mobile and high-set on a wide poll. The head is set onto the neck at an acute angle. The eyes are large with a somewhat slanting shape, which is sometimes compared to the look of a bird of prey.
Legs: lean and long with well-developed joints, firm and well-shown tendons, small and strongly built hooves. Legs stand parallel to each other.
Coat: thin and silky with a light mane and tail. The forelock and feather are absent or insignificant.
Colors: range from black to cream in great varieties, often with metallic shine of gold or silver.
Barbs; There seems to be different types here. There is the more primitive example(wild, some mustangs)
Then there is the "pure" Andalusian/Lusitano, a much larger and more ideal saddle horse.
I suspect that many of these types were used to an extent.
Here are some modern examples:
Breed Standards:
TYPE - Middleweight (weight around 500 kgs.) "Medium lined"; sub-convex profile (with rounded outlines); a silhouette that can be fitted into a square).
HEIGHT - Medium; at the age of six years, the average height, measured at the withers is 1.55m (nearest conversion 15.1hh) for females and 1.60m (15.3hh) for males.
COAT - The most appreciated and esteemed are all shades of grey and bay.
TEMPERAMENT - Noble, generous and ardent, but always gentle and able to support duress.
MOVEMENTS - Agile, elevated forward, smooth and having a great facility to carry the rider in comfort.
APTITUDE - A natural ability for concentration, with a great disposition for High School work; courage and enthusiasm for the gineta exercises (combat, hunting, bullfighting, work with cattle etc.).
HEAD - Well proportioned, of medium length, narrow and dry, with the lower jaw not too pronounced and the cheek inclined to be long. Slightly sub-convex profile with slightly curved forehead (in advance of the eyebrows' bones); the eyes, tending to an elliptical form, are big, alive, expressive and confident. Fine, narrow and expressive ears of medium length.
NECK - Of medium length, with fine hair line, deep in the base, well inserted between the shoulders, rising up arched from the withers without convexity, ending at a narrow and fine junction with the head.
WITHERS - Long and well defined, with a smooth transition from the back to the neck, always higher than the croup. On adult stallions is sometimes covered with fat but always prominent from the shoulders.
CHEST - Of medium size, deep and muscular.
RIBCAGE - Well developed, long and deep, slightly arched ribs obliquely inserted into the spinal column giving rise to short and full flank.
SHOULDERS - Long, slanting and well muscled.
BACK - Well placed, tending towards the horizontal and making a smooth connection between the withers and the loins.
LOINS - Short, wide, slightly convex, well connected with the back and croup with which they form a continuous line.
CROUP - Strong and rounded, well-balanced, slightly slanting. The length and width of identical dimensions; harmonious convex profile with the point of the hip unobtrusive, giving the croup a cross section of elliptical shape. Tail with long, silky and abundant hair gently emerging from the convex line of the croup's profile.
LEGS - The forelegs are well muscled and harmoniously inclined. Upper arm straight and muscular. Knees are thick and dry. The cannons tend to be long, dry and with well-pronounced tendons. The fetlocks are dry, relatively big and with very little hair. The pasterns are relatively long and sloping. The hooves are of good constitution, well formed and proportioned without being too open; the line of the coronet is not very evident. The buttock is short and convex. The thigh is muscular, normally short and oriented in such a way that the patella gaskin is in the same vertical line as the hip-bone, or point of the hip. The legs are normally long, placing the point of the hock in a vertical line with the point of the buttock. The hocks are large, strong and dry. The hind legs form relatively closed angles.
Now, here is my take on the Arabian.
I won't even look at the modern "show" strains because they obviously so unlike anything that you would breed for speed racing.
However, modern racing strains are different all together.
I was hoping to find something more about the legendary French Arabian Stallion Manganate, who looks VERY Thoroughbred to me. In fact, he is inbred to Denouste, who also looks this way.
Manganate
Denouste
I seem to recall reading about Manganate somewhere on the internet, and if memory serves me correct, there was a high suspicion of his purity.
I cannot seem to find that article.
If anyone can find some info on this it would be great.
I suspect some Munique blood and that could have been a result of the eastern trade and various crosses of Barbs, Turks, and Arabians already going on centuries ago, therefore creating a different type was used to form the modern Arabian racing strain.
I have always suspected that the "types" of Arabians used to create the Thoroughbred where probably the same.
There was just more Turk and Barb/Galloway/Spanish blood in the native British horse since they were already faster anyways.
More Modern Arabian racing strain photos:
A couple of last things.
The Connemara Pony is believed to be the nearest remnant of the Irish Hobby before significant Barb blood was introduced.
This is a modern Connemara Pony.
The Primitive Sorraia horse's ancestors are suspected to be the base strain for all native British horses.
I found a pic of a modern representative.
LOOK AT THAT HIND QUARTER!!
I could really use a hand about the racing Arabian strains here if anyone can assist. Thanks.
diomed wrote:Searching the net for nice pictures of different "types" of horses..I could really use a hand about the racing Arabian strains here if anyone can assist. Thanks.
Diomed,
Look for Polish breeding - Witez II could be considered one of the 'founding fathers' of Arabian Racing in the US.
There's a good page at http://www.witez.com/history1.html
Here's the wikipedia link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witez_II
There's a very good page with lots of pictures of Witez II relatives at http://www.athenaarabians.com/Artiklar_hingstar/kuhailan_haifi_oa_part1.htm
The reason I say look for Polish breeding is that the state stud there (before WWII at least) had a policy of only breeding horses that raced well.
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Pan Zareta
- Breeder's Cup Winner
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- Location: west TX boonies
Shammy Davis wrote:I recall the New Jersey Act as a response to the same questions regarding the American TB.
Shammy, I think you mean the plain ol' Jersey Act (proposed by Lord? Jersey), the infernal decree of 1913 that forbade inclusion in the GSB of any individual that couldn't trace 100% of their lines to previous entries in same. It was repealed in the late 1940's b/c their pure-pedigreed steeds kept getting beat by "half-breds". The only reason the Jersey Act didn't preclude reg. of *Nasrullah & other notables born betw 1913 & ~1948 was b/c everything not pure GSB that was reg. before 1913 was 'grandfathered' in.
Ears - fwiw, we have ~25 horses here at the moment, reg. TB, QH, apdx QH, and 'out of New Mexico by Stock Trailer' (grade). All but two of them have those short, curved ears (example below, ears at very bottom of photo). Maybe, there's some linkage disquilibrium between genes controlling ear shape & cardiac size/function, but I'm inclined to think it's just coincidence.
Thanks for the links aerthevox!
I knew the Polish bred a lot of good racing strains as well, it's just that I have always felt the French bred Arabs looked more TB, which might actually support the supposed "tainted" blood theory.
Whatever the case, the link of the relatives of Witez II are very interesting and some of those individuals look like the French bred horses as well.
I have noticed that even with the TB looking Arabians, they still have a short body, indicating lack of that rib, which the TB, Spanish-bred, Turk,and QH all have.
Aren't those Andalusians/Lusitanos just the most regal looking horses?
When I first saw the pics, I started drooling. LOL!!
I knew the Polish bred a lot of good racing strains as well, it's just that I have always felt the French bred Arabs looked more TB, which might actually support the supposed "tainted" blood theory.
Whatever the case, the link of the relatives of Witez II are very interesting and some of those individuals look like the French bred horses as well.
I have noticed that even with the TB looking Arabians, they still have a short body, indicating lack of that rib, which the TB, Spanish-bred, Turk,and QH all have.
Aren't those Andalusians/Lusitanos just the most regal looking horses?
When I first saw the pics, I started drooling. LOL!!
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Matchemforever
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 12:07 pm
Here you go Diomed-
When you asked for racing Arabs, for some reason I thought- Russian lines.
Here’s a nice sport horse type who gets those hind legs under himself. He’s no longer alive (drat) but his type is the kind of Arab I like. And look at those shoulders and profile...ok, I'll stop drooling now:
http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/Sporth ... Video.html
And more info here: http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/arabia ... lynov.html
(16.2, too, according to the site)
Now, if I had a heavier warmblood mare, (and didn't care about registering) I'd be looking at this kind of guy. Maybe even a TB sport type mare....
I think you can find more information through the site on the Russian Arab, I don't have time now to look through it but I intend to later!
When you asked for racing Arabs, for some reason I thought- Russian lines.
Here’s a nice sport horse type who gets those hind legs under himself. He’s no longer alive (drat) but his type is the kind of Arab I like. And look at those shoulders and profile...ok, I'll stop drooling now:
http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/Sporth ... Video.html
And more info here: http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/arabia ... lynov.html
(16.2, too, according to the site)
Now, if I had a heavier warmblood mare, (and didn't care about registering) I'd be looking at this kind of guy. Maybe even a TB sport type mare....
I think you can find more information through the site on the Russian Arab, I don't have time now to look through it but I intend to later!
Very nice video 
It's hardly surprising that the Russian Arabs are good movers - they took the best Polish Arabians during the war!
I've read the biography of Witez II and the reaction when he entered the show ring for the first time must have been amusing to his owners - evidently there were rumors flying that he was ugly, cow-hocked, sway backed, etc., even though his progeny were winning in the show ring. Disproving the rumors was the only reason his owners decided to show him (I think he was in his mid-teens at the time).
At that time, it was an axiom that Arabians couldn't trot. They could run and walk, but their trot was short and choppy. When Witez II moved out at the trot, the crowd was in awe - because he looked like he was floating.
I believe it was his, and his progeny's success in performance and in the show ring that started the importation of Polish Arabians.
It's hardly surprising that the Russian Arabs are good movers - they took the best Polish Arabians during the war!
I've read the biography of Witez II and the reaction when he entered the show ring for the first time must have been amusing to his owners - evidently there were rumors flying that he was ugly, cow-hocked, sway backed, etc., even though his progeny were winning in the show ring. Disproving the rumors was the only reason his owners decided to show him (I think he was in his mid-teens at the time).
At that time, it was an axiom that Arabians couldn't trot. They could run and walk, but their trot was short and choppy. When Witez II moved out at the trot, the crowd was in awe - because he looked like he was floating.
I believe it was his, and his progeny's success in performance and in the show ring that started the importation of Polish Arabians.
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Matchemforever
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 169
- Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 12:07 pm
Witez II is one of my fav's in the Arab world.
Here's some more I found:
"....but was the sire of Orzel who was Top 10 English Pleasure and US National Champion in Racing, one of the foundation sires of racing Arabians in the US."
Take a look at some of the pictures of Orzel’s ancestors, especially Kann-
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.p ... d=&x=0&y=0
If the pictures come up for you, you can view here some of the Russian horses:
http://www.arabianbloodstock.com/Russia ... story.html
And I think I hit the mother lode of links for racing Arabs here. Some are very interesting looking:
http://www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk/zayin ... -links.htm
Here's some more I found:
"....but was the sire of Orzel who was Top 10 English Pleasure and US National Champion in Racing, one of the foundation sires of racing Arabians in the US."
Take a look at some of the pictures of Orzel’s ancestors, especially Kann-
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/index.p ... d=&x=0&y=0
If the pictures come up for you, you can view here some of the Russian horses:
http://www.arabianbloodstock.com/Russia ... story.html
And I think I hit the mother lode of links for racing Arabs here. Some are very interesting looking:
http://www.zayinarabianstud.co.uk/zayin ... -links.htm
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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Pan Zareta posted:
Yep, that's what I mean. Must have gotten confused. I've been watching the goings on between the divorce of the ex-NJ Governor, who came out the executive office closet, and his wife. That definitely was a "New" Jersey Act. Thanks. We certainly don't want to confuse good TB breeding and racehorse history with bad New Jersey "sex" acts and political stupidity.
Shammy, I think you mean the plain ol' Jersey Act
Yep, that's what I mean. Must have gotten confused. I've been watching the goings on between the divorce of the ex-NJ Governor, who came out the executive office closet, and his wife. That definitely was a "New" Jersey Act. Thanks. We certainly don't want to confuse good TB breeding and racehorse history with bad New Jersey "sex" acts and political stupidity.
Matchemforever, that last link is the motherload for Arabian Racing. WOW! Thenak You!
The Shadwell Arab Stallions trip me out.
The conformation pictures are absolutely beautiful and those horses, especially about the head, neck, and shoulders look like thoroughbreds. The butts give away their breed though. LOL!!
I noticed that the majority of these horses have Manganate, St. Laurent, Denouste and the mare Mandragore in their blood. Some have inbreeding to them.
I have seen pics of Manganate, Denouste and St. Laurent;all of them look very different than your typical Arabian.
They all have pics up at the all-breed pedigree site.
The pedigree further back has many desert bred founders. Could the background of these particular strains be Munique? Perhaps the same blood as the Darley Arabian?
The obvious to me is that the speed of the TB and QH comes from the hind quarters and body length.
Where did that come from?
That is the eternal question.
Shammy, that was hilarious!!!!!
The Shadwell Arab Stallions trip me out.
The conformation pictures are absolutely beautiful and those horses, especially about the head, neck, and shoulders look like thoroughbreds. The butts give away their breed though. LOL!!
I noticed that the majority of these horses have Manganate, St. Laurent, Denouste and the mare Mandragore in their blood. Some have inbreeding to them.
I have seen pics of Manganate, Denouste and St. Laurent;all of them look very different than your typical Arabian.
They all have pics up at the all-breed pedigree site.
The pedigree further back has many desert bred founders. Could the background of these particular strains be Munique? Perhaps the same blood as the Darley Arabian?
The obvious to me is that the speed of the TB and QH comes from the hind quarters and body length.
Where did that come from?
That is the eternal question.
Shammy, that was hilarious!!!!!
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Shammy Davis
- Chef de Race: Classic
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- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:23 am
diomed posted:
You have not taken into account the presence of the North American Indians and their horses. Specifically, the Chickasaw and Cherokee tribes whose reputation for horse breeding and training became famous in the early history of our nation.
If you can get a copy of THE QUARTER RUNNING HORSE- America's Oldest Breed by Robert Moorman Denhardt, he explains this in more detail. Essentially, these horses were introduced to NA by the Spanish. Described as small (13 hands), but remarkable for their muscular development, they had extraordinary beauty. Considering that many NA TB's in modern times have been returned to Europe via breeding and sale, this might give emphasis to the fact that the breed conformation and character has remained somewhat stable. I read this book many years ago and still have a copy. I'm going to have re-read it myself. Wow, my reading list is becoming quite extensive. Guess I'll have to give up my "gossip" magazines and "reality" TV shows to keep up with this thread.
. . . The obvious to me is that the speed of the TB and QH comes from the hind quarters and body length.
Where did that come from?
That is the eternal question.
You have not taken into account the presence of the North American Indians and their horses. Specifically, the Chickasaw and Cherokee tribes whose reputation for horse breeding and training became famous in the early history of our nation.
If you can get a copy of THE QUARTER RUNNING HORSE- America's Oldest Breed by Robert Moorman Denhardt, he explains this in more detail. Essentially, these horses were introduced to NA by the Spanish. Described as small (13 hands), but remarkable for their muscular development, they had extraordinary beauty. Considering that many NA TB's in modern times have been returned to Europe via breeding and sale, this might give emphasis to the fact that the breed conformation and character has remained somewhat stable. I read this book many years ago and still have a copy. I'm going to have re-read it myself. Wow, my reading list is becoming quite extensive. Guess I'll have to give up my "gossip" magazines and "reality" TV shows to keep up with this thread.