Early patterns of the TB.

[Pan Zareta]

Isn't there a guy in Texas that is is working on putting together a mtDNA database?

Are you thinking of Loren Bollinger in New Mexico? He's working on British and American female families.

[diomed]

Diomed, really fascinating to read what your thougths are with regard to the early TB's (and QH's) and the mixing of the UK and USA strains.

Thanks!
According to pedigree query, there is only ONE English family that has a strain of Old Janus...
Drum roll please...........Alice Hawthorn's family from Janus Mare 4(Janus x Pantons Spinster by Crab). This line also includes; Bona Vista, Le Sancy, Thormanby, The Provost, St. George, Kingston, The Swede, Inheritor, Picaroon, Alderman, Bedlamite, Loup Garou, The Miner, Prime Minister, Telemachus. Base family branch of Man O’War, Macgregor, Kisber, Wenlock, Bruleur, etc.

[Matchemforever]

Anyone found this site yet? Sorry if it's a repeat.

http://www.highflyer.supanet.com/

Some different takes on TB ancestry, including Eclipse.



Back to the Barb-

Take a look at those ears:
http://www.originalhorses.org/stallions ... ngact.html

Here's the main page:

http://www.originalhorses.org/stallions ... fuego.html

Check out testimonials and make sure to click on "resuce" near the top for a cute story.

I find some of the picture links don't work or go where you think, but interesting site and read on interpretations of Barb origin. From what I gather here (caveat) the horses from Spain known as Barbs brought to other countries were probably not pure.

After looking around and reading, if one were to contemplate a little new blood for the TB, this might be it.

[diomed]

Thanks for that link matchemforever!
Very interesting stuff. Especially the breed description.


Continuing my obssession about family # 15.....


Champion Sires in the early years of the Thoroughbred in England(Chronological)

• 1 ACASTER TURK - 1721
• 2 DARLEY ARABIAN (1700) - 1722
• 3 THOULOUSE BARB - 1723
• 4 BAY BOLTON* (1705) - 1724,1726,1727,1729,1732,1733,1734
o *4 lines of Turk blood
• 5 BALD GALLOWAY - 1725
• 6 ALCOCK'S ARABIAN - 1728
• 7 CHILDERS (1715) - 1730,1736
• 8 FOX (1714) - 1731,1735
• 9 CROFT’S PARTNER (1718) - 1737,1740,1741,1743
• 10 GODOLPHIN BARB (1724) - 1738,1745,1747
• 11 NEWTON'S GREY ARABIAN - 1739
• 12 BARTLETT'S CHILDERS - 1742
• 13 BOLTON STARLING (1727) - 1744
• 14 BLACKLEGS (1728) - 1746
• 15 CRAB (1722) - 1748,1749,1750
• 16 BLAZE (1733) - 1751
• 17 CADE* (1734) - 1752,1753,1758,1759,1760
o *Godolphin Barb x Bald Galloway mare
• 18 REGULUS* (1739) - 1754,1755,1756,1757,1761,1763,1765,1766
o *Godolphin Barb x Bald Galloway mare
• 19 BLANK *(1740) - 1762,1764,1770-Full brother to Old Janus
o *Godolphin Barb x(3rd dam full sister to Bald Galloway)
• 20 SNAP (1750) - 1767,1768,1769,1771
• 21 MATCH'EM*(1748) - 1772,1773,1774
o By Cade
• 22 MARSKE (1750) - 1775,1776
• 23 KING HEROD (1758) - 1777,1778,1779,1780,1781,1782,1783,1784
• 24 HIGHFLYER* (1774) – 1785,1786,1787,1788,1789,1790,1791,1792,1793,1794,1795,1796,1798
o Dam is by Blank out a Regulus (dam by Bald Galloway) mare
• 25 KING FERGUS* (1775) – 1797
o By Eclipse who is out of a Regulus mare
• 26 SIR PETER TEAZLE* (1784) - 1799,1800,1801,1802,1804,1805,1806,1807,1808,1809
o 3x4 to Regulus
• 27 TRUMPATOR* (1782) – 1803
o Paternal grandson of Cade
• 28 WAXY* (1790) – 1810
o Sire Pot8O’s is 3x3 to Regulus/Cade
• 29 SORCERER* (1796) - 1811,1812,1813
o Paternal sireline to Cade, Dam is by Diomed(sire has a son of Bald Galloway;2nd dam by Blank), 2nd dam is by Matchem(son of Cade), 3rd dam is by Babraham, and 6th dam is by Bald Galloway
• 30 SELIM* (1802) – 1814
o Sire is 3x4 to Cade and has Regulus as sire of his 3rd dam; Dam is 4x5 to Regulus, 5x5 to Cade and also has Blank.
• 31 RUBENS* (1805) - 1815,1821,1822
o Full brother to Selim
• 32 WALTON* (1799) - 1816,1818
o By Sir Peter Teazle; Dam is 4x3x4 to Regulus and also has Blank
• 33 ORVILLE* (1799) - 1817,1823
o Sire has Eclipse and Matchem; Dam is by Highflyer and 4th dam is by Regulus
• 34 SOOTHSAYER* (1808) – 1819
o By Sorcerer; Dam sire is by Highflyer x mare by Blank, 2nd dam has Marlborough, Blank and traces directly to a full sister to the dam of Bald Galloway
• 35 PHANTOM (1808) - 1820,1824
o Paternal grandson of Sir Peter Teazle; Sire’s dam is by a son of Eclipse; Sire’s dam also has Blank and is 3x4 to Regulus; Dam is by Diomed and 2nd dam is also the dam of Sorcerer
• 36 ELECTION (1804) – 1825
o By Gohanna(sire Mercury is by Eclipse who whose 2nd dam is by Mogul(full brother to Blank and Old Janus); Gohanna’s 2nd dam is by Matchem and his fourth dam is also by Mogul/Election’s dam is by Woodpecker, who is from a Cade mare
• 37 WHALEBONE* (1807) - 1826,1827
o By Waxy; Dam is by Trumpator out of a Highflyer mare/ 4th dam is by Blank
• 38 FILHO DA PUTA (1812) – 1828
o By Haphazard (Sir Peter Teazle x mare by Eclipse, 2nd dam by a son of Cade) and Dam by Wazy out of a Woodpecker mare and 4th dam is by Blank

• 39 BLACKLOCK (1814) – 1829
o By Whitelock (by Hambletonian, a paternal grandson of Eclipse, out of a mare by Highflyer/Matchem mare/mare by a son of Babraham); Dam by Pheonomenon (dam by Eclipse, 3rd dam by Blank), 2nd dam by Matchem
• 40 EMILIUS (1820) - 1830,1831
o By Orville (by Beningbrough(paternal grandson of Eclipse; 2nd dam by Matchem) out of a mare by Highflyer and 4th dam by Regulus); dam by Stamford(by Sir Peter Teazle out of an Eclipse mare, out of a mare by Blank), out of a Whiskey mare out of a Dorimant (sire out of a Cade mare, dam by Babraham) mare, next dam by Blank

[diomed]

Anyone know where I can find a historic sire list for the American thoroughbred?
I know Lexington set some kind of record, so there HAS to be a list through the years for American based stallions.

Never mind..Found one..
Duh! TBHeritage.

[Matchemforever]

I thought I'd buy Haun's book about the X Factor until I discovered the current price for one....

My information is from articles and I've got a couple questions about what Haun has said- and whether she took it further in the book:

She says Man O' War passed on the X-Factor but doesn't elaborate where he got it, presumably, from Mahubah. (Duh) Mahubah is Rock Sand crossed on a Hampton-bred mare. Any thoughts on if Mahubah was a single copy or double?

Haun also traces the heart to Eclipse, but that's about as far as the articles go. But Eclipse dam sire was Regulus, regardless of who his sire really was. If Eclipse had it, he got it from his dam who, IF she was a double copy, got it from the Godolphin line also.

Does Haun elaborate any more on those two in the book? Sorry I haven't been able to find more in articles.

[diomed]

I thought I'd buy Haun's book about the X Factor until I discovered the current price for one....

My information is from articles and I've got a couple questions about what Haun has said- and whether she took it further in the book:

She says Man O' War passed on the X-Factor but doesn't elaborate where he got it, presumably, from Mahubah. (Duh) Mahubah is Rock Sand crossed on a Hampton-bred mare. Any thoughts on if Mahubah was a single copy or double?

Haun also traces the heart to Eclipse, but that's about as far as the articles go. But Eclipse dam sire was Regulus, regardless of who his sire really was. If Eclipse had it, he got it from his dam who, IF she was a double copy, got it from the Godolphin line also.

Does Haun elaborate any more on those two in the book? Sorry I haven't been able to find more in articles.

I think I have her book.
I will dig through my collection(which is vast...I really need a big book shelf).
It's interesting that Eclipse's damsire is Regulus, whose damsire is Bald Galloway.
LOL!!
I couldn't resist that one. I have been picking away with family #15 all day today.

[Pan Zareta]

She says Man O' War passed on the X-Factor but doesn't elaborate where he got it, presumably, from Mahubah. (Duh) Mahubah is Rock Sand crossed on a Hampton-bred mare. Any thoughts on if Mahubah was a single copy or double?

Per the chart p. 140 The X-Factor, Haun regards Mahubah and her first two dams as probable double copy mares.

Haun also traces the heart to Eclipse, but that's about as far as the articles go. But Eclipse dam sire was Regulus, regardless of who his sire really was. If Eclipse had it, he got it from his dam who, IF she was a double copy, got it from the Godolphin line also.

Does Haun elaborate any more on those two in the book? Sorry I haven't been able to find more in articles.

Haun's early research found the common thread in the pedigree of LH individuals was a line w/ no male repeats to Pocahontas 1837. Further research 'backed' the commonality up to Eclipse's dau. Everlasting 1775, and to at least one of his other daus. So Haun certainly mentions Eclipse, noting that he is known to have had a 14# heart, but I don't recall any speculation as to whether it was more likely inherited or mutation, at least not in her first book.

[Matchemforever]

Thank's Pan Zareta.

I guess that will be the next question, is the LH just a mutation, or was it present in a certain strain of horses that made up the Thoroughbred stew.

[Shammy Davis]

I'm truly being left in your dust on this thread. The amount of information being posted is not only interesting but extensive. I used to think as an old farrier and country boy, I was somewhat well-read. Not anymore.

I do have one thought which came to me as I was reading about the Hancocks and that I further entertained as I looked at some dated pictures of productive TB sires in the early 1900's. At what specific point from the publish date English JC Stud Book (1806?) do we consider the physical development of the TB to be secure?

I started in the horse business out west in the early 70's. The western saddle horse, whether paint, appie, QH, or crosses were typically small and quite stout. Today, I see the same breeds much taller and less stout. Many of these breed stud books remain somewhat open. The TB is completely closed. There must have been a point in time when TB breeders, owners, and trainers looked upon our breed and said, Yes, this is it.

I have always been taken by the fact that A. B. Hancock, Sr. and, previously, his father, were able to have productive studs (pre-Sir Gallahad III) with what we might today call sub-par stallions. I guess my point is that at some point the physical development and points of conformation became clear to the industry. To me that is the point of this thread. Looking back to find at what point we find the true TB definition.

[diomed]

Shammy,
Interesting post.
There is really no one single point to this thread and all angles are welcome here.
If you feel more comfortable starting with a more modern era, then by all means, have at it.
It is still a "past" pattern.
I have a tendency to look waaaaaay back, but that is my obsession, and certainly don't expect many to share it.
The formation of the first stud book, or specifically the first printing was in 1791.
I really don't recall if it was closed then or not. I believe the term "thoroughbred" came about in or around 1750 when they formed the Jockey Club.

Speaking of publications, since someone else kindly linked us to an American source, I did some author searching for full downloadable books on Google Books. I hit the motherload!
I used a book that I spent a pretty penny on about 10 years ago. It is called "Bibliography Of The History And Organisation Of Horse Racing And Thoroughbred Breeding In Great Britian And Ireland"(Books published in Great Britian and Ireland 1565-1973) by Eileen P. Loder, F.L.A.
Here are the links to what I found.
American Stud Book Vol. VII
History of the British Turf, from the Earliest Times to the Present Day
The Origin and Influence of the Thorughbred Horse
The General Stud Book

I also managed to grab a few old publications about British Sport that have chapters on horse racing.
Also some books about the Arab horse and it's influence.
Let me know if you want me to post more.

[aethervox]

I have a piece of advice for everyone - never, ever, ever, ever buy a house with a tree planted above the main sewer line. Roots in a sewer line are not a good combination. 'Nough said.

Names I always like or wondered about:
Honeycomb Punch
Spanker

According to the 1737 Dictionary of thieving slang, at http://www.fromoldbooks.org/NathanBailey-CantingDictionary/W/WHIPSTER.html a Whipster is a sharp or subtle fellow.

As for Honeycomb Punch - there's a breed of Draft horse called the Suffolk Punch - Punch refers to their compact body shape, maybe that's the case here.

[diomed]

I have a piece of advice for everyone - never, ever, ever, ever buy a house with a tree planted above the main sewer line. Roots in a sewer line are not a good combination. 'Nough said.

Oh man....I don't miss my old house at all. Had the same problem at least twice a year.
I feel for ya.

[aethervox]

I have a piece of advice for everyone - never, ever, ever, ever buy a house with a tree planted above the main sewer line. Roots in a sewer line are not a good combination. 'Nough said.

Oh man....I don't miss my old house at all. Had the same problem at least twice a year.
I feel for ya.

Yep, had to have Roto-Rooter come and clean the drain, which took a bit longer than it should have because his root cutting cable snapped. We did get some of the drain root killer they recommend and I'm going write on the calendar when to put it in.

Going back to the topic: I've discovered that a lot of mares were known by a 'common' first name, i.e. Fanny and their owner's/breeder's last name. I suspect that the initial got started when the last name was too long or unpronounceable.

[xfactor fan]

Can anyone point me at conformation photos of any of the following horses.

Suave Dancer
Miesque
Miasma
Snake River Canyon
Mytic Tribe
Kitalpha

Also any daughters of Nureyev that have gone on to produce several stallions.

I've already got Mien and Miesque.

Interesting stuff is shaking out of some current research, will post when there's a bit more data. Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks