Early patterns of the TB.

[diomed]

OMG! This was hilarious!

This past Saturday while watching HRTV(waiting for the Mother Goose), there was a stake being run at Pleasanton(?)...
Not really paying attention to the horses in the post parade(I was multi-tasking) I turned to look at the race when I heard the gates open.
What I noticed was the tails of most of the horses where up in the air.
I said to my boyfriend "OMG, those are Arabians!"...
He noted that they seemed very slow.
Well, the winner of that race was several lengths the best and when they posted the final time, I LMAO!
1:10 and change for 5 furlongs.
Why do they even bother to breed Arabs to race short?
That was just another reason for me to believe that our dear "fast" breeds, the TB and QH did not get this speed from their pretty Arabian ancestors, despite lady Wentworth's claims of it.

[xfactor fan]

Lady Wentworth was shall we say focused? To the extent of not being able to see any other point of view. And prone to tailoring her facts to fit her conclusions. Not unlike another thread that is going on right now in racing.
Leads one to wonder about obsessive compulsive disorder.

[diomed]

Is the TB database having issues today?
I am cross referencing and correcting pedigrees in the all breed database.
When I go to the TB database, it just hangs.
Dangit!

[Pan Zareta]

There must have been a point in time when TB breeders, owners, and trainers looked upon our breed and said, Yes, this is it.

Seems to me that time would have been when the GSB was established. It's been the 'benchmark' registry ever since, exclusive entirely by pedigree (and now DNA). Other than a few occasions when the books have been opened to Arabians (nominally in the interest of stamina?), the only concession to type (ability, actually) was the rescission of the Jersey Act.

Fwiw re. western saddle horses, those I see top hands using now are quite TB-ish except for (1)shorter, on avg., through the barrel and (2)usually at or >15h.

Any other memorable names of early thoroughbreds?

The only name that ever seriously made my jaw drop is in ASB 2 (aka: Vol. 1 part 2, L-Z). If you still have a copy checked out and aren't easily offended, have a look at names of the 1st dams of the mares on p. 142. She raced under that name. Try to imagine Tom Durkin calling it.

Lady Wentworth was shall we say focused? To the extent of not being able to see any other point of view. And prone to tailoring her facts to fit her conclusions

Ya' think?

Not unlike another thread that is going on right now in racing.
Leads one to wonder about obsessive compulsive disorder.

Maybe OCD is a bit harsh. Strongly and sweetly single-minded, perhaps?

[Matchemforever]

Not having a whole lot of luck on Suave Dancer. Here's some relatives:

Here’s a Suave Dancer son- and it’s no conformation shot but at least the horse is standing still:

http://www.racethoroughbreds.com/horseProfile.php?id=30


Another son:

http://www.stallionsonline.co.uk/stallion_15914.html


This is where he stood and there is a picture of Desert Sun, by the same sire as Suave Dancer:

http://www.elizapark.com.au/stallions.php


I even tried the Wayback machine:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

But no pages back to 1998 and nothing on those close that I could find on Suave Dancer. There is some book on Ebay that keeps coming up....


....however, did find a page on Beau Pere that I'm going to have to go back and read when I find time. Never find what I'm looking for but what else crops up is sometimes very interesting....

[xfactor fan]

Thanks for looking, another conformation shot needed is one of Special. Broodmares are very difficult to find photos of.

[aethervox]

The only name that ever seriously made my jaw drop is in ASB 2 (aka: Vol. 1 part 2, L-Z). If you still have a copy checked out and aren't easily offended, have a look at names of the 1st dams of the mares on p. 142. She raced under that name. Try to imagine Tom Durkin calling it.

Yeah, I noticed her name, too.

Obviously the horse was named after a creek in Lunenberg County, Virginia called <dam's name as two words> Branch. Or at least that's what her breeder would claim if she were being registered today.

Addition: The mystery deepens - in the American Race Turf Register, published 1833, that mare has a slightly different name.
Go to http://books.google.com/books?id=02UCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA494 and take a look.
I wonder which one is correct?

[Pan Zareta]

Obviously the horse was named after a creek in Lunenberg County, Virginia called <dam's name as two words> Branch. Or at least that's what her breeder would claim if she were being registered today.

Addition: The mystery deepens - in the American Race Turf Register, published 1833, that mare has a slightly different name.
Go to http://books.google.com/books?id=02UCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA494 and take a look.
I wonder which one is correct?

Probably that as given 2:142. Elsewhere in the ASB the name is discreetly abbreviated. If it was actually as given by Edgar, there would have been no need. He probably thought it was misspelled. Perhaps whomever named her was unfamiliar w/ Old English.

[Matchemforever]

Beau Pere

"Overall he stood at stud for 16 seasons, for 286 named foals and a 69 percent of winners with 49 stakeswinners of 107 stakesraces. He was in the top 20 of the US Sires List five times from only 7 crops there. He was the damsire of over 70 stakeswinners including Swaps, Prince Morvi, Flower Bowl, Karendi, etc."

Some interesting shots of Beau Pere's arrival in the U.S.

http://www.barnesphotography.com.au/beaupere/page1.htm

[Elles]

Suave Dancer
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43555660@N00/561993269/

[xfactor fan]

Thanks, lovely photos. Did you take them?

[[email protected]]

BRAVO!!! Keep it up!!! Pat

[xfactor fan]

Other than the mtDNA study posted on the TB heritage site, are there any other studies that give actual horses & mtDNA types? Any insight on what kind of mtDNA family 20 is carrying?

Thanks.

[Matchemforever]

Lacking time right now so only skimmed the following- and it's over my head, anyway. I didn't find anyone naming names, for the most part. Some of the selections are here because they mention Irish horses, Iberian, etc. Sorry for any repeats of information already posted.

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:VE ... 25206(2006)%252053-66.pdf+mtDNA+study,+thoroughbreds&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12139508

http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/agen/abstr ... 29!8091!-1

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:4J ... =firefox-a


Yikes- I can’t interpret this:
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905/F2.expansion

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... l/94/5/374

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S14 ... ci_arttext

They’re not naming names or lines here:
http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/archives/2006/0603/031.shtml

A few names here, mostly way back:
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/weekly ... momma.aspx

Takes on Iberian horses:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co ... l/96/6/663

[aethervox]

For this one: http://www.pnas.org/content/99/16/10905/F2.expansion

What they are saying is that while there are many different mutations (A-G) present in equine mtDNA d-loop, the A6 mutation appears in all equid species, indicating that it was probably the root mutation. From that root there are about 13 horse mtDNA branches. On those branches, there are 17 very frequent mtDNA types that are old enough to have mutated and developed distinct subtypes.

When they searched for a correlation between mtDNA cluster and breeds, they discovered a very strong correlation between C1 and northern European Ponies, and Cluster E is entirely Icelandic, Shetland and Fjord ponies.

D1 was mostly found in breeds of Iberian (Andalusian and Lusitano) and Northwest African (Barb) origin. The Cluster includes a high percentage of American Mustangs, but only 5% of Arabs tested belonged to that cluster.

It will be interesting to see what happens when they get more data to sequence, especially from the central and eastern Asian breeds.

Thanks for the link!

(edited to correct typos)