Early patterns of the TB.

[Shammy Davis]

Pan Zareta posted:

Seems to me that time would have been when the GSB was established. It's been the 'benchmark' registry ever since, exclusive entirely by pedigree (and now DNA). Other than a few occasions when the books have been opened to Arabians (nominally in the interest of stamina?), the only concession to type (ability, actually) was the rescission of the Jersey Act.

I get your point, but prior to the published GSB, there must have been some conclusions drawn by a group of people as to the character and physical attributes of the breed. There must have been a point in time when a consensus was developed that led to the establishment of the TB. As with everything else involved with the breeding of domesticated animals I'm sure that the consensus occurred over a long period of time. I'm just wondering if there is any historical data prior to GSB that might give insight into the people and the conclusions that they drew upon.

[Matchemforever]

You're welcome- although it's darn hard to know when you don't know, if you're posting any useful links or not.

Aethervox, you said:

"D1 was mostly found in breeds of Iberian (Andalusian and Lusitano) and Northwest African (Barb) origin. The Cluster includes a high percentage of American Mustangs, but only 5% of Arabs tested belonged to that cluster. "

I find that interesting given the claim that the mustang descends from horse brought over from Spain and we all know that they were Arabian descent.

Is there enough information to target the Barb as a likely, key ancestor of the Thoroughbred? I say key because there is some Arab in there but beginning to look like more of a "stew" than at first believed.

I see more similarity in body type between TB and Barb, except for the "round" TB (Northern Dancer, etc.) which kinda remind me of the "round" Arabs. (Not exactly the halter ones but the ones that are compact, wide, and just, I don't know, "round" looking)

[xfactor fan]

Thank for the postings on mtDNA. Not exactly what I was looking for, but interesting anyway.

Shammy, I think the driving force behind the development of the TB was military use. Think of the world that was, where the horse was the primary mode of transportation. Armies need speed and stamina, agility and courage. Think of what is asked of the modern three day eventers. Dressage (parade ground maneuvers) Cross country (stamina & athletic ability) and Stadium jumping (agility under pressure).

On the top end would be the racehorses. Horses not fast enough for the track would end up in the army, or standing at stud to produce hunters or cavalry horses.

One last odd ball request. I'm looking for conformation photos of any Nureyev daughters. Got Mien. Need everybody else.
I'll be posting this whole study once a couple more families are complete.

[Nessa]

Pan Zareta posted:

Seems to me that time would have been when the GSB was established. It's been the 'benchmark' registry ever since, exclusive entirely by pedigree (and now DNA). Other than a few occasions when the books have been opened to Arabians (nominally in the interest of stamina?), the only concession to type (ability, actually) was the rescission of the Jersey Act.

I get your point, but prior to the published GSB, there must have been some conclusions drawn by a group of people as to the character and physical attributes of the breed. There must have been a point in time when a consensus was developed that led to the establishment of the TB. As with everything else involved with the breeding of domesticated animals I'm sure that the consensus occurred over a long period of time. I'm just wondering if there is any historical data prior to GSB that might give insight into the people and the conclusions that they drew upon.

I think the Thoroughbred is one of the few domesticated animals where a group of people didn't get together and decide that this is what the TB was going to be (the sleddogs used in the Iditarod are another, and for the same reason) at least not before the GSB.
The TB is a performance based breed, and if a horse could perform at a certain level in a certain way it was used to produce other horses that would, it was hoped perform the same way. This fact is borne out because there is no true homogenous type as in say the German Shepherd Dog or Siamese Cat or Jersey Cow. Even now the best pedigreed animal wont be used as a breeder for long if it's offspring don't perform on the track.
I also agree that TB ancestry is going to prove to be more of a "stew" than was previously thought, because the native populations were mixed. I also believe that this genetic stew is what makes the TB so versatile and is probably what makes them able to upgrade and mix well so many breeds.
Question: Have any of the identified halotypes in the taproot mares been identified in other breeds?

[Pan Zareta]

There must have been a point in time when a consensus was developed that led to the establishment of the TB.

I'd point first to the Restoration, more specifically Charles II's establishment of the Kings Plate races (four mile heats). Breeders wanted/needed to improve the distance capability of the native stock and began importing Turks & Barbs on a relatively large scale. The importation of Arabs began somewhat (~20yrs.) later.

Is there enough information to target the Barb as a likely, key ancestor of the Thoroughbred?

One of them, definitely.

Aethervox, you said:

"D1 was mostly found in breeds of Iberian (Andalusian and Lusitano) and Northwest African (Barb) origin. The Cluster includes a high percentage of American Mustangs, but only 5% of Arabs tested belonged to that cluster. "

I find that interesting given the claim that the mustang descends from horse brought over from Spain and we all know that they were Arabian descent.

The only clade (cluster) that has a statistically significant geographic affiliation is Clade F, which is loaded w/ breeds from the Far & Near East.

Other than the mtDNA study posted on the TB heritage site, are there any other studies that give actual horses & mtDNA types? Any insight on what kind of mtDNA family 20 is carrying?

No study known to me other than that of Hill et al. correllates haplotype w/ Lowe family number (i.e. stud book record) in its published reports.

In re. family 20, I can pm you the name of someone who might be willing to give you info on family 20's haplotype if it's one of those he's worked on. Other than that the easiest, if not most economical, way to find out would be to test an individual believed to be of family 20.

[xfactor fan]

Thanks but I'll wait till your friend publishes. I'm working on tracking X & Y chromsomes/conformation and want to include info on the mtDNA lines to see if there are any connections with the mtDNA that pop out.
So far there does seem to be a connection with the X. Not much with the Y, and mtDNA.

But the sample size is still pretty small, and there aren't many photos of broodmares-or conformation shots of mares in general. And the best way to do bad science is start with small samples, or to be "selective" about the samples to prove a point.

[aethervox]

The only clade (cluster) that has a statistically significant geographic affiliation is Clade F, which is loaded w/ breeds from the Far & Near East.

Do you have a citation for this? It wasn't mentioned in the article the figure came from, and I'd certainly like to read more about the subject.

[Pan Zareta]

Do you have a citation for this? It wasn't mentioned in the article the figure came from, and I'd certainly like to read more about the subject.

McGahern, A. et al. "Evidence for biogeographic patterning of mitochondrial DNA sequences in Eastern horse populations." (Short Communication) in Animal Genetics 37(5)494-497. Oct. 2006.

"Until now, no clear geographic affiliation of clades has been apparent. In this study, AMOVA analyses have revealed a significant non-random distribution of the diversity among equine populations when seven newly sequenced Eurasian populations were examined in the context of previously published sequences. The association of Eastern mtDNA types in haplogroup F was highly significant..."

[Pan Zareta]

Thanks but I'll wait till your friend publishes.

He's previously published. I'm not even sure he's working on mtDNA at the moment. The identities of pedigreed stock sampled for equine mtDNA studies are usually known to the researchers, even when the purpose of the study has nothing to do w/ correcting historic records or correllating haplotype w/ performance. The main reason they are not identified in the published report by family number and/or name is that such details are superfluous in phylogenetic context.

[xfactor fan]

In that case I'd love to communicate with your friend. Didn't want to post data in advance of his publications.

Thanks.

[Pan Zareta]

xfactor fan, you have a pm.

[Shammy Davis]

Xfactor fan replied:

Shammy, I think the driving force behind the development of the TB was military use.

This is what I was thinking. I wonder if there is any historical reference to this that could directly be connected to a particular horse or line of TBs?

I may be off base here but I've been reading the posts with quite a bit of interest. From a lay perspective, I would think that tracing the mtDNA, lacking any mutations, might be easiest, if not the only way, to determine breed influence. I'm a little over my head but I'm hoping things will level out as I become more informed.

I'm am willing to entertain any posts concerning the "New" Jersey Act and its effect on the current British Queen and her offspring. I've heard gossip that the the former NJ and NY governors have been invited by Prince Charles to be his spiritual advisors while mommy is entertaining Monty Roberts at Windsor for the summer and Camila is attempting to erase pornographic pictures from her cell phone.

[Pan Zareta]

I may be off base here but I've been reading the posts with quite a bit of interest. From a lay perspective, I would think that tracing the mtDNA, lacking any mutations, might be easiest, if not the only way, to determine breed influence.

There are at least 17 haplotypes in the TB spread throughout all but one of the clades (aka: clusters, haplogroups). The same is true of most other breeds sampled. It points to widespread geographic distribution of aboriginal mtDNA haplotypes before domestication and selection for type began, and makes it exceedingly difficult to draw valid conclusions about founder mares from the relatively recent (17th & 18th c) past. Personally, I find it significant that the largest concentration of TB haplotypes is in Clade D and the same is true of Spanish stock, but at present it's impossible to make an argument for this significance that would pass scientific muster.

I'm am willing to entertain any posts concerning the "New" Jersey Act and its effect on the current British Queen and her offspring. I've heard gossip that the the former NJ and NY governors have been invited by Prince Charles to be his spiritual advisors while mommy is entertaining Monty Roberts at Windsor for the summer and Camila is attempting to erase pornographic pictures from her cell phone.

Meanwhile, Prince Philip is entertaining Mandy Rice-Davies.

[diomed]

Hi all.
I have been out of the loop since the 2nd and the nasty storms that swept through Michigan.
The electricity was out for half a day(we were lucky in that regard), but the cable was out for over 4 days and then I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get an internet connection. Turns out my wireless router is shot so I have to directly go ethernet cable. Arghhh....
Anyways, I am finally catching up with the discussion.
Great read.
I think the "war" theory is a valid one.
It is well known that Henry VIII was importing numerous horses for upgrading the stock of the royal stables at Hampton Court. Many of these were Spanish, since his favorite horse was the Jennet.
The Byerley Turk, as we all know, was a war horse himself.
The whole "stew" idea is spot on if you ask me.
In fact, that is exactly what I have tried to tell folks who are sold on the "Arabian" only influence.
Oh, what I wouldn't give to go back in time and get a look at the Godolphin Barb/Arabian, Byerley Turk, and Bald Galloway(who I think does not get enough credit in the formation of the breed).
Another horse I would have loved to have seen is Little Janus.
I had been picking around on the all breed database with QH pedigrees before the outage in my area.
I have found that quite a few TB lines used traced to Spanish mares.
Also, Maria West is a very heavy presence and when I looked at her 2nd dam Huntsman Mare..WOW! I have never seen that much of Janus and his family in a pedigree. There is even a rare Sister to Blank(therefore, a sister to Old Janus).
I believe that Maria West is the only source of this blood in both the TB and QH gene pools.
Fascinating stuff.

[xfactor fan]

Importing horse to upgrade war horses goes back to Roman times. There's some historical evidence that the real King Arthur--Roman/Britian war leader from around 500, imported black horses to upgrade the local cavalry mounts. Anne McCaffery did a fiction version of the story called "Black Horses for the King" based on research she did.
I think--been a long time since reading the book--that there's a string of "Black Horse Pubs" that mark the path the horses took from ship to their final location at stud.

Horses were very important, and I suspect there was a whole lot more trading / movement going on than the ancients were given credit for.