A discription of Janus sounds like the type that the founders of the American Quarter horse association had in mind for their breed.
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=jan ... ecai&meta=
For a long time already I have been wondering where that muscled look came from. What breeds have lots of muscle?
Early patterns of the TB.
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Elles wrote:A discription of Janus sounds like the type that the founders of the American Quarter horse association had in mind for their breed.
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=jan ... ecai&meta=
For a long time already I have been wondering where that muscled look came from. What breeds have lots of muscle?
Well, since Janus obviously had it we have to consider his bloodlines seriously. I have a suspicion that it is some kind of Galloway or Hobbie, but then again, it could also be a Barb influence. One thing for sure, it is NOT Arabian since I have NEVER seen an Arab with an ass. LOL!
I find it interesting that Janus II is by Janus I whose 3rd dam is a full sister to Bald Galloway who is also the sire of his(Janus II) second dam. Thus, making him inbred to Bald Galloway and his full sister Points 4x3.
The sire of Janus II is a full brother to Blank, Old England, and Sister To Blank.
Also, closely related blood relatives to Janus I are Babraham, Marlborough, and Mogul.
When they founded racing horses in the colonies, regardless of the type of racing, they used Janus II, Jolly Roger(son of Mogul), and Shark(2nd dam by Marlborough).
Many of these stallions were used to form the American thoroughbred AND the QH.
Which brings me back to why Janus II isn't given much credit for the TB breed as well.
Many American TB families trace to a Janus II mare and horses like Meads Celer(inbred to Janus II), Blackburns Whip, etc.....
Then some of this "American" blood ended up in Europe via some French, IItalian and even English lines...(Tourbillon, Nearco, Nasruallah, etc).
Even Princequillo has our American lines through Prince Rose.
Getting back to early blood.
I noticed that Regulus and Cade(both Godolphin Barb/mare by Bald Galloway crosses) had great success in America as well as England, so is it really a surprise?
Something about our boy Godolphin Barb LOVED the blood of Bald Galloway and it produced some seriously fast and prepotent breeding stock...
Things that make you go hmmmmm......
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vineyridge
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Couple of questions--Why do some people think Bulle Rock was the first English TB (even though the GSB wasn't then) imported to the US?
There was racing in the American colonies long before the TB was "fixed" by the USB. Surely some of the Cavaliers would have exported fine horses for their racing before 1730.
PZ, thanks for the information on Sibola. I knew about Americus and his get being grandfathered into the GSB, but did not know about Sibola.
Most of the "native" American horse lines are very heavily Matchem and Herod. (Or Byerly Turk and Godolphin's Arabian/Barb). That pattern persisted for 150 years. Wasn't Himyar's line the first that persisted and became "native" that went to the Darley Arabian?
There was racing in the American colonies long before the TB was "fixed" by the USB. Surely some of the Cavaliers would have exported fine horses for their racing before 1730.
PZ, thanks for the information on Sibola. I knew about Americus and his get being grandfathered into the GSB, but did not know about Sibola.
Most of the "native" American horse lines are very heavily Matchem and Herod. (Or Byerly Turk and Godolphin's Arabian/Barb). That pattern persisted for 150 years. Wasn't Himyar's line the first that persisted and became "native" that went to the Darley Arabian?
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Argh...the computer ate my post!!
Here's the recap:
About year 0
Going back a couple thousand years the British Isles had warring tribes that hand pony sized warhorses that pulled chariots. Rome happened and the Celts, Picts and everyone else that wasn't Roman was pretty much toast. Romans had chariots, but they also rode astride, or at least the officers and couriers did. Rome imported lots of horses from all over the empire so all of a sudden there were bigger horses wandering around. Rome wanted bigger faster stronger horses, as did those pesky tribes that didn't want to be Roman.
About year 500
Rome pulls the last legion out of Britain. This is pretty much the time period of the historical Arthur. Who also needed horses to patrol, skirmish
and for the officers. There is some indication that trade for Spanish/Easter horses continued.
About 1066.
Ann Hyland a horse historian makes the claim, based on archeological findings including looking a lots of horse shoes dug up from Hastings, that the Norman was horse was about the size and build of the modern Cow Horse. 14-15 hands stock. (working cow horses, not those big butt conformation horses) Apparently the stress of a cow hitting the end of a rope, is just about the same as a mounted lancer skewering a footsoldier.
About 1300
The warhorse changed to a heavy mount up to carrying a heavy knight in chain or plate mail. These were not Shire or Clydesdale types, but closer to the modern Friesian or Andalusian.
As Dave C mentioned the longbowmen pretty much killed this style of warfare at Creasy in 1364, and Angincourt. The yeoman bowmen slaughtered a whole batch of French Knights and Horses.
After Creasy the warhorse type changed again, from the heavy horse to a lighter horse for officers, couriers and recon.
Between the early 1600, and 1800, which I consider a major point in the formation of the TB, the need for a new type of war horse emerged. They needed to be able to carry speed over distance with a adult male onboard.
Wellington's mount Copenhagen would be a good example. Mostly TB--he was sired by a son of Eclipse with a bit of Arab blood on the bottom side. This was a horse that could carry a adult male all day, had enough speed to keep his rider out of trouble and endurance to last.
http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex/co ... gton/271/1
The need for this new type of warhorse surely went into the selection mix that shaped the TB.
Add to the need for battlefield mounts the mounts for the parade ground, for hunting while not fighting, for racing when not fighting, for showing off when not fighting, there would have been a need for lots of types of horses.
To bring the Bald Galloway type horses back into the mix, perhaps these were the same type of horsed that fought in the Norman Conquest--14-15 hand stocky agile horses that could carry a man in light armor all day.
Here's the recap:
About year 0
Going back a couple thousand years the British Isles had warring tribes that hand pony sized warhorses that pulled chariots. Rome happened and the Celts, Picts and everyone else that wasn't Roman was pretty much toast. Romans had chariots, but they also rode astride, or at least the officers and couriers did. Rome imported lots of horses from all over the empire so all of a sudden there were bigger horses wandering around. Rome wanted bigger faster stronger horses, as did those pesky tribes that didn't want to be Roman.
About year 500
Rome pulls the last legion out of Britain. This is pretty much the time period of the historical Arthur. Who also needed horses to patrol, skirmish
and for the officers. There is some indication that trade for Spanish/Easter horses continued.
About 1066.
Ann Hyland a horse historian makes the claim, based on archeological findings including looking a lots of horse shoes dug up from Hastings, that the Norman was horse was about the size and build of the modern Cow Horse. 14-15 hands stock. (working cow horses, not those big butt conformation horses) Apparently the stress of a cow hitting the end of a rope, is just about the same as a mounted lancer skewering a footsoldier.
About 1300
The warhorse changed to a heavy mount up to carrying a heavy knight in chain or plate mail. These were not Shire or Clydesdale types, but closer to the modern Friesian or Andalusian.
As Dave C mentioned the longbowmen pretty much killed this style of warfare at Creasy in 1364, and Angincourt. The yeoman bowmen slaughtered a whole batch of French Knights and Horses.
After Creasy the warhorse type changed again, from the heavy horse to a lighter horse for officers, couriers and recon.
Between the early 1600, and 1800, which I consider a major point in the formation of the TB, the need for a new type of war horse emerged. They needed to be able to carry speed over distance with a adult male onboard.
Wellington's mount Copenhagen would be a good example. Mostly TB--he was sired by a son of Eclipse with a bit of Arab blood on the bottom side. This was a horse that could carry a adult male all day, had enough speed to keep his rider out of trouble and endurance to last.
http://www.horseshowcentral.com/flex/co ... gton/271/1
The need for this new type of warhorse surely went into the selection mix that shaped the TB.
Add to the need for battlefield mounts the mounts for the parade ground, for hunting while not fighting, for racing when not fighting, for showing off when not fighting, there would have been a need for lots of types of horses.
To bring the Bald Galloway type horses back into the mix, perhaps these were the same type of horsed that fought in the Norman Conquest--14-15 hand stocky agile horses that could carry a man in light armor all day.
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vineyridge wrote:Wasn't Himyar's line the first that persisted and became "native" that went to the Darley Arabian?
His line and *Leamington's 1853, sire of Longfellow, Aristides, Enquirer, Iroquois, et al. (Obviously, *Leamington's male line has not persisted as long in the TB as Himyar's, but it continues to thrive in the QH via Leo 1940.)
diomed wrote:Elles wrote:A discription of Janus sounds like the type that the founders of the American Quarter horse association had in mind for their breed.
http://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&q=jan ... ecai&meta=
For a long time already I have been wondering where that muscled look came from. What breeds have lots of muscle?
Well, since Janus obviously had it we have to consider his bloodlines seriously. I have a suspicion that it is some kind of Galloway or Hobbie, but then again, it could also be a Barb influence. One thing for sure, it is NOT Arabian since I have NEVER seen an Arab with an ass. LOL!
I find it interesting that Janus II is by Janus I whose 3rd dam is a full sister to Bald Galloway who is also the sire of his(Janus II) second dam. Thus, making him inbred to Bald Galloway and his full sister Points 4x3.
The sire of Janus II is a full brother to Blank, Old England, and Sister To Blank.
Also, closely related blood relatives to Janus I are Babraham, Marlborough, and Mogul.
When they founded racing horses in the colonies, regardless of the type of racing, they used Janus II, Jolly Roger(son of Mogul), and Shark(2nd dam by Marlborough).
Many of these stallions were used to form the American thoroughbred AND the QH.
Which brings me back to why Janus II isn't given much credit for the TB breed as well.
Many American TB families trace to a Janus II mare and horses like Meads Celer(inbred to Janus II), Blackburns Whip, etc.....
Then some of this "American" blood ended up in Europe via some French, IItalian and even English lines...(Tourbillon, Nearco, Nasruallah, etc).
Even Princequillo has our American lines through Prince Rose.
Getting back to early blood.
I noticed that Regulus and Cade(both Godolphin Barb/mare by Bald Galloway crosses) had great success in America as well as England, so is it really a surprise?
Something about our boy Godolphin Barb LOVED the blood of Bald Galloway and it produced some seriously fast and prepotent breeding stock...
Things that make you go hmmmmm......
But the bulging muscle you find in a lot of Quarter horses and also a percentage of Thoroughbreds is not something you find in other breeds is it? Where did the Hobbies get it from if they gave that heavy muscled, short legged type?
Like in these Quarter horses:
http://www.thehorsemarket.com/images/ho ... d19752.jpg
http://www.hancockhorses.com/redman.html
http://www.hancockhorses.com/stallions.html
Edit: On the other hand, these Barbs look rather meaty.
http://www.mypets.net.au/petimages/barb.jpg
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previe ... 006069.JPG
This sounds like nonsense to me:
http://www.hancockhorses.com/joehancock.html
This writer is inclined to the belief that the dam of Joe Hancock was superior in breeding and otherwise to the dam of the imported Janus.
http://www.hancockhorses.com/joehancock.html
This writer is inclined to the belief that the dam of Joe Hancock was superior in breeding and otherwise to the dam of the imported Janus.
Elles wrote:This sounds like nonsense to me:
http://www.hancockhorses.com/joehancock.html
This writer is inclined to the belief that the dam of Joe Hancock was superior in breeding and otherwise to the dam of the imported Janus.
Oh my....
The bit about Pocahontas being from "ordinary" mares(her female family)..
I was rolling on the floor..
Didn't do their research did they?
diomed wrote:Elles wrote:This sounds like nonsense to me:
http://www.hancockhorses.com/joehancock.html
This writer is inclined to the belief that the dam of Joe Hancock was superior in breeding and otherwise to the dam of the imported Janus.
Oh my....
The bit about Pocahontas being from "ordinary" mares(her female family)..
I was rolling on the floor..
Didn't do their research did they?
You find that A LOT with the Quarter horse people, especially the foundation Quarter horse people who seem to detest Thoroughbreds.
This one is also a big bodied horse:
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pat+cowan
http://www.hancockhorses.com/patcowanroycleveland.jpg
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vineyridge
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Yeah, through the years I have noticed a lot of QH people that desest TBs as well.
I don't know why but it's their problem. LOL!
Perhaps they are "jealous" of the breed's prepotency?
The fact that at pure running speed they can be just as fast yet go farther?
Who knows, but you can't deny that even the bull dog breeds were founded by a TB name Janus.
I have even mentioned to a few of these folks that I know that the English had "short" running horses way before the American colonists(who, lest we forget were English gentry) and way before the stud book was invented. They used to run for "belles" which were purses rewarded to short races.
Many of these folks in England who entertained themselves with this fancy were common folk, much like the Americans who followed with the American QH.
Perhaps it was the gentry of both countries that took some of this speedy blood, bred it to get a longer type of plate runner that in turn was rewarded with more money and thus forced the common person to move elsewhere to race their "short" horses?
Some kind of resentment?
I find it interesting that "short" racing totally disappeared in England but survived in America.
Perhaps the size of the country and the ability to move west helped QH racing survive in this country vs England?
No matter. It appears that snobbery existed on both continents. LOL!
Well, at least that is my take on the matter.
I don't know why but it's their problem. LOL!
Perhaps they are "jealous" of the breed's prepotency?
The fact that at pure running speed they can be just as fast yet go farther?
Who knows, but you can't deny that even the bull dog breeds were founded by a TB name Janus.
I have even mentioned to a few of these folks that I know that the English had "short" running horses way before the American colonists(who, lest we forget were English gentry) and way before the stud book was invented. They used to run for "belles" which were purses rewarded to short races.
Many of these folks in England who entertained themselves with this fancy were common folk, much like the Americans who followed with the American QH.
Perhaps it was the gentry of both countries that took some of this speedy blood, bred it to get a longer type of plate runner that in turn was rewarded with more money and thus forced the common person to move elsewhere to race their "short" horses?
Some kind of resentment?
I find it interesting that "short" racing totally disappeared in England but survived in America.
Perhaps the size of the country and the ability to move west helped QH racing survive in this country vs England?
No matter. It appears that snobbery existed on both continents. LOL!
Well, at least that is my take on the matter.
In Holland QH people are always pointing at Indian Artifacts and giving him as an example why the TB is going to ruin the QH breed. Indian Artifacts is very tall, long legged and elegant and he is a QH with loads of TB blood.
http://www.whatiwork4.com/video.asp
http://www.whatiwork4.com/video.asp
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vineyridge
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Elles wrote:vineyridge wrote:And I notice he doesn't mention the Peter McCue scandal at all.
You mean the fact that he has offspring registered as Thoroughbreds?
Wasn't he originally registered as a TB with TB sire and dam? Then the stallion manager of the place he was bred let drop that his sire was actually a QH? The JC yanked his registration and the registration of all foals after the disclosure, but left the already registered ones in the Stud Book.
I know of a stallion, registered TB, with registered TB descendants, who has Peter McCue in his pedigree. I don't know how many more of them like that are out there.
Indian Artifacts is the perfect example of Appendix papers made good.
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Pan Zareta
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vineyridge wrote:Wasn't he originally registered as a TB with TB sire and dam? Then the stallion manager of the place he was bred let drop that his sire was actually a QH? The JC yanked his registration and the registration of all foals after the disclosure, but left the already registered ones in the Stud Book.
Although his pedigree (x Duke of the Highlands - Nora M. x Voltigeur) as recorded ASB 7:789 has been suspect since the day the horse first appeared at the track, as far as I know the JC has never acknowledged that Peter McCue might have been falsely registered, nor revoked his or any of his foals' registration.
At this late date his true pedigree's a moot point, but anyone considering the matter would do well to remember that two main primary sources for his pedigree are in contradiction. In the breeder's record book under Foals of 1895 is the entry "Nora M by Duke Feb 23". The notarized certificate of pedigree dated 5/17/1946 and signed by the breeder's son Walter Watkins says Peter McCue was sired by Dan Tucker.
In re. the linked article and the remarks about Pocahontas, it seemed to me that the author was tying to make the point that *Glencoe significantly "improved" his mares, which is arguably true.