Beaten by the Racetrack Surface

[Whirlaway]

Group Think
A reasoner commits the group think fallacy if he or she substitutes pride of membership in the group for reasons to support the group’s policy. If that’s what our group thinks, then that’s good enough for me. It’s what I think, too.

[TJ]

Group Think
A reasoner commits the group think fallacy if he or she substitutes pride of membership in the group for reasons to support the group’s policy. If that’s what our group thinks, then that’s good enough for me. It’s what I think, too.

Hi Whirl,
I believe Irving Janis also posts on here:>)

[Shammy Davis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Janis

So what was Janis' connection to horseracing?

[kimberley mine]

Shammy--

TJ is teasing Whirlaway.

[TJ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Janis

So what was Janis' connection to horseracing?

Hi Shammy,
None, doesn't really post here, as you noticed he's dead.......just Whirl giving a round about dig....the first sentence in your "wiki" is the essence of what was meant about this thread and those of us who posted...."most famous for his theory of "groupthink" which described the systematic errors made by groups when taking collective decisions"....... TJ

[Shammy Davis]

Ahhhh. I see.

[Whirlaway]

It took a little while, but I read most of the posts regarding the race and outside of comments made by me and Louis, I counted about three or four moderately critical comments about Zenyatta. For the most part everyone thought she was and I quote: "best horse ever, possibly imo."; "a magnificent runner."; "An Unbelievable Horse no matter how you slice that pie."; "She is among the very best, and I do not expect to see another one like her in my lifetime."; "She's still a phenomenal horse." "She ran the last quarter in 23 4/5" . . .

I couldn't post em' all but I think you get the point: Group Think - Almost everyone in this group thinks she is and I quote: "best horse ever, possisbly imo." To think otherwise one would risk being ostracized and lose membership in the group - or risk being called a "troll" or a member of a "cult." More evidence of this Group Think can be found where there are no responses, as with the post found here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29264. Why has no one in the group replied to this post? Could it possibly be that because what was was posted is true and conflicting with what the Group Thinks?

Whatever happened to critical thinking?

Fortunately, there exists a couple of us that see the world differently from the Group. NO doubt we will be criticized and heckled, called names and ostracized, but that can be expected and is usually the case when new ideas conflict with existing Group Think. It is only after the passage of time that new ideas will be accepted; maybe not in this lifetime, nor the next, but eventually, after enough horses have died from racetrack injury, those with closed minds who are defending existing ideas, beliefs, attitudes will see the truth in the new ideas from those that see the world differently.

There is still hope.
~
Now how about one of you Group Thinkers providing an answer to the link posted above! This should be good!

[TJ]

It took a little while, but I read most of the posts regarding the race and outside of comments made by me and Louis, I counted about three or four moderately critical comments about Zenyatta. For the most part everyone thought she was and I quote: "best horse ever, possibly imo."; "a magnificent runner."; "An Unbelievable Horse no matter how you slice that pie."; "She is among the very best, and I do not expect to see another one like her in my lifetime."; "She's still a phenomenal horse." "She ran the last quarter in 23 4/5" . . .

I couldn't post em' all but I think you get the point: Group Think - Almost everyone in this group thinks she is and I quote: "best horse ever, possisbly imo." To think otherwise one would risk being ostracized and lose membership in the group - or risk being called a "troll" or a member of a "cult." More evidence of this Group Think can be found where there are no responses, as with the post found here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29264. Why has no one in the group replied to this post? Could it possibly be that because what was was posted is true and conflicting with what the Group Thinks?

Whatever happened to critical thinking?

Fortunately, there exists a couple of us that see the world differently from the Group. NO doubt we will be criticized and heckled, called names and ostracized, but that can be expected and is usually the case when new ideas conflict with existing Group Think. It is only after the passage of time that new ideas will be accepted; maybe not in this lifetime, nor the next, but eventually, after enough horses have died from racetrack injury, those with closed minds who are defending existing ideas, beliefs, attitudes will see the truth in the new ideas from those that see the world differently.

There is still hope.
~
Now how about one of you Group Thinkers providing an answer to the link posted above! This should be good!

Hi Whirl,
First off this group think stuff is BS....to me This is more group opinions....no one knows each other here....every one posts their own opinions and aren't effected by group thinking.....this seems to be an agreement among opinions of posters who saw the race.....but each of us states our solitary opinion....not affected by group therefore there is no group think...but if it makes you feel like you're thinking out of the box....more power to you and your quest for individuality.
Your other post....about synthetics....it's all old hat, we've talked that all out....we know there is a distict dis-advantage in having different surfaces and it's the reason why racing is no longer in sync.....we can't get the best together to run against each other if they fear their horse won't handle an unfamiliar surface....there's lot's posted about it, take a while and read some of it. TJ

[Bast]

Now how about one of you Group Thinkers providing an answer to the link posted above! This should be good!

We know that in your opinion failing to win by 8-9 inches is the difference between greatness and being marginally better than an allowance winner, but perhaps you should tell us what a horse would need to accomplish before you could consider them great.

[louis finochio]

If Z was a dyed in the wool FB, those Z fans would have have not see her racing past 3. Many of those FB retire too early like Blame. Those FB arent around long enough to develop a fan base. Those owners of thse FB retire their tb early to catch the big money while their product is hot.

Thanks to those NFB breeders who are breeding for soundness & longevity, their tb are building a fan base.

[kimberley mine]

Group Think - Almost everyone in this group thinks she is and I quote: "best horse ever, possisbly imo." To think otherwise one would risk being ostracized and lose membership in the group - or risk being called a "troll" or a member of a "cult." More evidence of this Group Think can be found where there are no responses, as with the post found here: http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29264. Why has no one in the group replied to this post? Could it possibly be that because what was was posted is true and conflicting with what the Group Thinks?

First off, none of us here are patting the other on the back and congratulating one another in agreeing that Zenyatta is a nice horse, nor are we ganging up to call you nasty names and banish you from the group simply because we disagree with you. If you want those kind of reindeer games, put on your best asbestos underpants and head over to TBC. I suggest that you also bring a fire extinguisher and a first aid kit for burns. The flame wars get pretty gnarly over there.

Second, opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one, and that's great. It just so happens that many of us came to the same conclusion, after seeing the same evidence. Your opinion is different, you presented it, and we are disagreeing with you. That's fine, and all we want in return is for you to acknowledge our opinions as valid, and not treat us like we're brainwashed simpleton children for having the temerity to not agree with you...nor to insult us when we do homework that you are unable or unwilling to do (stakes/track records, anybody? time it took to run the final quarter?), and discount the evidence that we present as "obviously biased" or "obviously brainwashed" because it didn't happen to fit your view.

Third, I'm not sure how you can make the logical leap between nobody replying to a new post that you put up, and herd mentality.

Fourth, you are the only one here conflating the praise of all the posters who think that Zenyatta is a fine horse to "best horse ever, imo." Especially after you've had individuals explicitly say she's good but not the best, and others not compare her at all, but say that she's a fine horse. To conflate a collection of similar opinions into the one that fits your argument best is a serious flaw in discourse on your own part, and you compound your error by saying WE have a groupthink problem when YOU are the one making the error.

It is only after the passage of time that new ideas will be accepted; maybe not in this lifetime, nor the next, but eventually, after enough horses have died from racetrack injury, those with closed minds who are defending existing ideas, beliefs, attitudes will see the truth in the new ideas f

There is still hope.

Where the hell did that come from? I thought we were talking about Zenyatta.

[Still Dreaming]

First of all, I think http://boards.4chan.org/sp/ might be a better fit for Whirlaway and his/her rather singular style of posting.

Second of all, there's little I can say about this race that has not already been said. Blame ran a great race. Zenyatta ran a great race. It is quite likely, however, that in the decades to come Blame will be remembered much the way Upset, Stagehand, Dark Star, and Onion are remembered. Also, if Zenyatta's performance was not that of a truly great horse, then we have not yet seen one.

[zinn21]

Tuc wrote:

Warch the race early and she is too far back for kick back. She didn't handle the surface early on. You may choose to beieve what you like.

From Mike Smith after the race: " I got away just a little slow. Was just having a rough time of it going underneath the wire the first time. She just wasn't leveling out like I wanted her to. It was a combination of the dirt hitting her in her face; it was a lot of it, she just wasn't used to that part. It just left her too much to do."

Since Mike was on her back and knows her infinitely better than you, I will take Mike's word over your visual observations..

Link to interview. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... 871AACD9AB

[Tucumcari]

Tuc wrote:

Warch the race early and she is too far back for kick back. She didn't handle the surface early on. You may choose to beieve what you like.

From Mike Smith after the race: " I got away just a little slow. Was just having a rough time of it going underneath the wire the first time. She just wasn't leveling out like I wanted her to. It was a combination of the dirt hitting her in her face; it was a lot of it, she just wasn't used to that part. It just left her too much to do."

Since Mike was on her back and knows her infinitely better than you, I will take Mike's word over your visual observations..

Link to interview. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/ ... 871AACD9AB

I will never argue that I know anything about the mare other than she is a great one.
I am sure you are aware that trainers and jocky's alike have standard "excuses" for horses. Horse is scratched because of a "foot."
Horse didn't like the kick back.
I expect you have enough common sense Zin to be able to think this thu. She has had kick back from All of the synthetics she has run on as well as the Oaklawn surface. HAs she ever had an issue with getting surface kicked in her face? No. The feel free to watch the race and tell me how much dirt would reach her where she was. Is she throwing her head around trying to avoid it? No. Whas she literally stumbling through the dirt? Yes she was. WATCH the race.

[zinn21]

Tuc, I've watched the race several times and she was ducking kickback by the stands the first time. Again I will defer to Mike's analysis over yours. WATCH the interview.