Louis's Blog on Inbreeding

Understanding pedigrees, inbreeding, dosage, etc.

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Shammy Davis
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Postby Shammy Davis » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:22 pm

KM wrote:
Except for the pile of scientific evidence showing that horses who are broken and trained and race at 2 have longer careers, make more starts, and have greater bone density than horses who start later.


I wish I could remember where I read this comment, but I think it characterizes the way some trainers think. "There is nothing more stupid than a TB starting to race as 3 year old."

KM, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between bone density and equine stupidity. I just thought it was interesting that a trainer would characterize the importance of juvenile racing that way.

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Postby louis finochio » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:22 pm

A breeder must build the Foundation, before you build the house. Diet & galloping will not build strong bones if those breeders of Fashion seek speed & Inbreeding to 1 sire line. I have posted tons of those FB, that were unraced or sustained carrer ending injuries with single digit starts.
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Shammy Davis
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Postby Shammy Davis » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:35 pm

Louis, what is a single digit start? Racing on one leg? Louis, you didn't read what DDT said in a previous post. DDT pointed out that your comments are based on average starts. There are many racehorses making more starts than the average. You need to bone (no pun intended) up on your math.

Your comment about strong bone is also hoot. You don't have a clue, do you? Exactly where in the pedigree do we find bone density info? I have sensed recently that your adobe reader has not been working but when you do get it operational, check out this link on assessing equine bone strength in the young horse.

http://www.ker.com/library/advances/324.pdf

kimberley mine
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Postby kimberley mine » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:49 pm

Shammy Davis wrote:
I wish I could remember where I read this comment, but I think it characterizes the way some trainers think. "There is nothing more stupid than a TB starting to race as 3 year old."

KM, I wasn't trying to make a comparison between bone density and equine stupidity. I just thought it was interesting that a trainer would characterize the importance of juvenile racing that way.


Well, depends on the bones being assessed. Certainly having extra bone density in the area around (and between) the ears will make a difference... :shock: :D

On a less flippant note, there is a set of activities that, when followed as a juvenile, lead to better outcomes (more money, fewer injuries, better racing longevity). The catch is that ALL of the steps in the process must be followed, including general fitness work, specific speed work, breeze ups and trials and races, AND, after the first few steps are finished, turning them out for a while and letting their baby bodies and baby minds grow up for a bit.

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Bast
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Postby Bast » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:43 pm

louis finochio wrote:A breeder must build the Foundation, before you build the house. Diet & galloping will not build strong bones if those breeders of Fashion seek speed & Inbreeding to 1 sire line. I have posted tons of those FB, that were unraced or sustained carrer ending injuries with single digit starts.


You've posted endless lists of your own opinions with neither evidence nor references to to proofs.

Inbreeding to one sire line? Doesn't that mean that the TB is pretty much doomed because nearly all of them now trace to Eclipse?

Why is Phalaris such a terrible influence but Domino is not and Bay Ronald is not???
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!
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A horse gallops with his lungs
Perseveres with his heart
And wins with his character. --Tesio

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BenB
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Postby BenB » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:08 am

Bone density is only a part from a racehorse. More fast work at a young age provide serious joint problems (proven aswell) without joints no horse.

Joint problems causes much more other injuries. (fatal breakdowns)
Last edited by BenB on Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

parlo
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Postby parlo » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:46 am

The genetical difference between human beings and chimpanzees is only 1 % of total DNA. The other way: they are 99 % the same.

But what a huge difference in appearance, behavior and "culture"!

How minor is the genetical difference between you and me and f.e. Louis then?

Well, in contrast to race-horses, human beings and chimpanzees have not been artificially bred for a single purpose for some 30 generations by now. So, the genetical differences between race-horses may even been smaller than between human beings.

On the contrary: true science has proved that the differences in race-horses' performance is only by some 20 - 25 % caused by genetics. The more "environmental influences" you consider in those estimations the more the "influence of genetics" is diminishing (which is a problem of the methods used for those estimations, too).

But 95 % of tb-literature is on breeding and not raising and training and other perhaps important environmental influences on performance.

Anyway: what does "inbreeding to a sire-line" then really mean? We, the tb-breeders, do that for almost 200 years to Eclipse - 100 years before Phalaris, 50 years before Northern Dancer and his sons were born.

As Phalaris's line is florishing more than even even in his 8th - 10th generation of his progeny all the bad influence, which may have been in him (nobody did say till now which ones?!) has been washed out.

Why should "inbreeding" to Phalaris in 8 generations may be bad and "FFI" to that roarer (!) Pocahontas in 15 generations may be good to the breed?

After some 5 years and 430+ pages of this weird thread, we are still standing at the very beginning and haven't moved a single footstep. :? :cry:

All I can see is: Louis is caught and mumificating in his narrow walls of perception.

Sorry for that loss of weathy lifetime. :!:

Let's hope the "young" breeders and those "new in the business", to whom Louis has dedicated his work, do see that nonsense.

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BenB
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Postby BenB » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:48 am

The new and young ones, are a different crop in any way. So will be their apetite for breeding and racehorses also be different, towards our apetite.

If Louis theory seems about to be right, than racing will not survive another decade. As there is no breeding without phalaris involved possible.

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Postby kimberley mine » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:41 am

BenB wrote:Bone density is only a part from a racehorse. More fast work at a young age provide serious joint problems (proven aswell) without joints no horse.

Joint problems causes much more other injuries. (fatal breakdowns)


Exactly correct, which is why getting turned out to the paddock for a 3-4 month spell after doing the bone density work is so critical.

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BenB
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Postby BenB » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:58 am

Most trainers and owners alike, does not get this ever in their mind.

laura22
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Postby laura22 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:56 am

Re-2yo races in uk. Last season, the first 2yo race was on 27th March. there were 14 runners, all born at least 2 years before race day, bar one that finished last.

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BenB
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Postby BenB » Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:59 pm

How was their progress during the season?

louis finochio
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Postby louis finochio » Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:59 am

When RAN was bred to a Ph. sire line mare, thus a Ph. over Ph. mating. it resulted in the breeding of a sound Individual.
A foal of 1973 Azirae started 49 times, BMS was Nashua=Ph. in this Ph. over Ph. mating.

Azirae Inherited 30 crosses of NP---2 crosses Ph. in his 5 generation pedigree, thru his stallions & mares. The soundness influence of those NP sire line Individuals plays a major part in breeding a sound tb.
Those without sin cast the first stone.

Louis Finochio

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ElPrado
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Postby ElPrado » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:33 am

Louis, you are almost as confused as the spotted tabby cat sitting next to my elbow eating a ritz cracker. If I eat it, she does.

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Bast
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Postby Bast » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:54 am

louis finochio wrote:When RAN was bred to a Ph. sire line mare, thus a Ph. over Ph. mating. it resulted in the breeding of a sound Individual.
A foal of 1973 Azirae started 49 times, BMS was Nashua=Ph. in this Ph. over Ph. mating.

Azirae Inherited 30 crosses of NP---2 crosses Ph. in his 5 generation pedigree, thru his stallions & mares. The soundness influence of those NP sire line Individuals plays a major part in breeding a sound tb.


Louis,

Why Phalaris? Why not Ultimus as the Root of Evil? 8)
May 2013: Plan ahead now for the Phalaris/Teddy Centennial!

*****************************

A horse gallops with his lungs

Perseveres with his heart

And wins with his character. --Tesio