Bleeding and Genetics

[xfactor fan]

The problem has been around for a very long time.

Xenophon the Greek general who wrote the first book on training war horses, recommended testing warhorses in training by shutting them up in a dusty stable, and then after a time, testing them to see which horses had breathing problems.

Just for the record he also advocated wind sprints for conditioning.

[BenB]

Humans, with airway problems that needs medical assistance are not competing in ahtletics.

I,ll stick to the europe way of thinking: as long as US racehorses are alowed to race with medication, any race results from the US racehorses are wothless or worth next to nothing.

Salix and Lasix are diuretics and because of that they are race enhacers.

Race enhacers and painkillers Like bute are strongly forbidden overhere as in the whole racing world except in the USA.

[Dave C]

And I will agree with you that the use of lasix/salix should be greatly curtailed. Racing in a jurisdiction where only about half the horses run on L, I've seen too many horses that have not been on L, get claimed by a trainer that runs everything on L, and perform consistently worse until they are taken off L. I'm not convinced that L is a performance enhancer unless the horse actually has a problem with bleeding. I think the European racing model is better, but I also notice that European owners and breeders are not concerned about importing 'bleeding' genetics in their purchases in Ky.

[griff]

BenB

I use lasix because all the horses i race against use lasix and if I run w/o lasix I am at a disadvantage..

Any horse can be made to bleed and qualify for lasix, and all the track Vets and trainers know this. Well maybe not 100% but certainly not less than 99%.

So, often, maybe many, times a horse on lasix is not a natural born genetic bleeeder

griff

[Joltman]

From what was said above there seem to be 2 types of bleeders - the real bleeders (from the nose) and those only visible by scope. That the trainer/owner would want Salix if it would help performance (no not only stop bleeding) is understandable and despite the EIPH arguments, as Griff notes, probably most are running on the stuff just to 'keep the advantage'. Of course, we don't know if perhaps, down the road, it actually harms performance/health. Furthermore the Salix application seems to cloud the real issue as to how much horses do actually bleed (in the US) and how much it does effect performance, and whether those serious bleeders are actually being able to continue racing. Some bleed through despite Salix.

Its funny how on Breeders Cup day some of those Euro horses all in the sudden become 'bleeders' and the L1 showsup on the racing form. So is the problem actually breeding bleeders, or is it the performance edge?

jm

[BenB]

When you are facing opposition, which are having an advantage, you be "forced" to do the same.

Overhere the advantage, performance enhancer, is the real trigger.

[Dave C]

In Alberta, harness horses are not allowed to race on lasix. I have observed over the years that trainers that campaigned down south during the winter have brought back cheap horses who suddenly broke their lifetime best marks by several seconds when taken off lasix. Horses in the same trainers care would run comparable times on the two tracks, so I interpreted it as not being a track bias. This is one of the reasons I question the performance enhancing benefits of lasix.

Only about half of TB's in Alberta race on lasix, horses on lasix do not win the majority of races. Horses being moved onto lasix in Alberta after racing without it are usually a very bad bet based on my observations.

I postulate that the real benefit to lasix is in masking the use of other drugs and in particular the withdrawal times for proven performance enhancers. The dehydrating effect of lasix can be used by the pharmacists masquerading as trainers to ensure a clean test for a horse that would have tested positive without lasix. If say the withdrawal time is supposed to be 48h, then perhaps a trainer can get away with 36h if they flush their system with the help of lasix.

[BenB]

Dave, with your latest sentence you are right.

For us overhere that is not biggest issue.

In france for instance there is an absolute law, that forbids any med,s giving within 7 days prior to an race. when a vet,s gives something that is nor recorded, he will loose his job and income, purse will automaticaly reditributed trainer and owner are facing terrible long punishment.

[griff]

Strangs but I have noticed that first time lasik users get a bump up at the betting window..
And believe it or not the handycappers seem to have a decent handle on what works and what does not work.

griff

[Dave C]

I heard that too griff which is why I paid attention to L1 horses. When I started losing money betting on them I went back to my sources and they said 'yeah sometimes the first time on L they bounce but then they do really well on L2'. I lost money on L2 horses as well so I stopped believing.

[aethervox]

Humans, with airway problems that needs medical assistance are not competing in ahtletics.

I beg to differ. There are several athletes at the Olympic level who have asthma, but successfully compete. Jackie Joyner-Kersee is one that comes instantly to mind.

As far as EiPH goes, I stumbled across an interesting web site that theorizes that EiPH is a reaction to a subclinical lung infection. http://www.racehorseherbal.com/Racehorse_Injuries/EIPH/eiph.html

It's an interesting theory, and if you click on the link to the forums at the bottom you'll find one owner who swears by the guy's herbal formula.

[BenB]

I have had a racemare that bled severely out of her nostrils, but all her relatives bled sever after a certain age or were having severe airway problems

Vestal Heights bled
dirty dancer contineous airway problems
under pressure fr bled

Belfast Child both front tendons bowed.Raced only twice I thought

I have tried to solve the problem with herbals, but it was so severe that it did not worked.

[griff]

try lasix and KY red
grif

[BenB]

The whole bunch was giving away by their respective owners.

Lasix overhere? You must be kidding.

The punishment is more than the combined worth of the horses.

[Tucumcari]

"The conformation of the horse's body seems to be the real underlying cause of EIPH. The movements of internal body parts caused by intense galloping causes squeezing of part of the horse's lungs against the chest wall. The fine capillaries in the chest wall, repeatedly impacted, rupture the horse's air passages thus causing them to become clogged with blood.

During intense exercise, blood pressure in the lungs becomes very high. The pressure can be so high that it causes stress failure"