Size and the TB

karenkarenn · Postby **karenkarenn** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:29 pm

Another question for the smaller horse people
How many starts did it take for the horse to win?
Karen

Bast · Postby **Bast** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:41 pm

karenkarenn wrote:Another question for the smaller horse people
How many starts did it take for the horse to win?
Karen

I believe Ribot was unbeaten.

docjocoy · Postby **docjocoy** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:18 pm

karenkarenn wrote:Another question for the smaller horse people
How many starts did it take for the horse to win?
Karen

I would think it's very individual, Karen. Some small horses win, some huge horses win. My tiny gelding never won, and my friend's large, gorgeous, sale-topping yearling who made my yearling look like a pony also never won. Good luck with your filly, she's getting closer, I bet she does finally win.

xfactor fan · Postby **xfactor fan** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:39 pm

But the question remains. Did the success of Northern Dancer as a sire change the overall size of the TB?

karenkarenn · Postby **karenkarenn** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:41 pm

No No I didn't want it to be about her... But no seriously Oleos has a good question that many people don't realize.
And here is something to throw into -- it also depends on the trainer too.
You might have the next tripple crown winner and take him or her to the wrong trainer then nothing but heart ache.

As far as Northern Dancer goes --- since its way far back in alot of the breeding what if there are other sires out there that have genetics to throw smaller horses. Northern Dancer didn't effect my filly.
The question should be --- which sires or grand sires, or broodmare sires have the dominant genes to make smaller horses?
Bertrando is one.

vineyridge · Postby **vineyridge** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:15 am

It's always been made very clear that Eclipse was totally average, and he was undefeated, IIRC. Stride length isn't always connected to size. I'm thinking of Man O' War and Buckpasser, both of whom were neither large nor small. At the KHP, they have an stride marker near the statue of MOW, and his was huge--at least six inches longer than the other stride they used for comparision. But I can't remember offhand, who the other horse was that they used in the comparision.

I personally know that Buckpasser could produce a huge stride in his closings that made his competitors look positively tied up.

Since the average size of the TB has increased maybe four to six inches since the late 1700s, I'd guess that sixteen hands would be about average these days.

Size, stride length and results would be an interesting research project for today.

Sysonby · Postby **Sysonby** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:35 am

xfactor fan wrote:But the question remains. Did the success of Northern Dancer as a sire change the overall size of the TB?

Northern Dancer threw a few distinct types. Nijinsky had to be 16.3. Then there were horses more like himself like Nureyev and Danzig. But no stallion is so prepotent IME that all of his ancestors are exactly like him. Take Big Brown. Tail male ND but much, much bigger.

I think the average TB is still about 16 hands tall.

Sysonby · Postby **Sysonby** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:37 am

karenkarenn wrote:No No I didn't want it to be about her... But no seriously Oleos has a good question that many people don't realize.
And here is something to throw into -- it also depends on the trainer too.
You might have the next tripple crown winner and take him or her to the wrong trainer then nothing but heart ache.

I think it mostly trainer myself. A good trainer can't turn a bad horse into a good one but it doesn't take much to ruin a good one.

vineyridge · Postby **vineyridge** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:07 am

Someone just sent me the 1964 American Racing Manual article on Northern Dancer. It has all his dimensions and very interesting comments about him, which are particularly fascinating given his later history.

At 3, and he wasn't even really three when he won the Derby, he was 15.1 3/4ths hands.

If anyone would like me to pass the article on, PM me.

Barcaldine · Postby **Barcaldine** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:03 am

I'm still recovering from the 1964 Kentucky Derby in which the pint-sized beat the towering Cal-bred HILL RISE. As a nine-year-old who worshipped every Cal-bred that made the big time it was an especially tough loss since it came on the heels of the 1963 Derby loss by my favorite horse CANDY SPOTS. Only one year before, in 1962, I became hooked on the Derby when the Cal-bred DECIDEDLY (15.1 hands) pulled a stunner over the Kentucky elites.

Ah, for the innocent days of lost youth!