Has anyone else encountered the following scenario... you pay the money for a full month of board and to reserve a stall so that you can move your horse within the week, only to have them call your barn and claim that you said stuff against the barn your horse is currently at? And then have the people at the current barn think that you gave them a bad rep? I walked in and found most of that out and was more than just slightly irked.
If I could count the number of times that something has gotten blown out of control-Gossip involving horses and horse people-I cannot count that high-Horse people-No offense to anyone, please-are famous for being hysterical and gossipy types. Never, never say something to a horse person that you do not want repeated-no matter how much you think you can trust someone-or think that they are not going to repeat it
Long, detailed post... creative ideas needed!
Moderators: Roguelet, hpkingjr, WaveMaster, madelyn
Okay, at least I'm not alone in that scenario. It aggravates me though, because I'm not one to go around bad mouthing people. And then having to pick up the pieces of something I didn't even break is next to impossible, because it's just my word against someone else's (and whoever believes the boarders?)
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
I'm amazed too. I always keep the leadline on her just in case she spooks off of the crossties because it'd make her easier to catch, but so far she's been great on them.
She learned crosstying in mid-November and I was the only one teaching her. It's one of those things that made her a lot easier to handle (grooming without having to worry about her moving around). She mouths the crossties a bit, but overall does very well on them. She's been crosstied at least 2-3x a week since she's learned them for varying amounts of time.
She learned crosstying in mid-November and I was the only one teaching her. It's one of those things that made her a lot easier to handle (grooming without having to worry about her moving around). She mouths the crossties a bit, but overall does very well on them. She's been crosstied at least 2-3x a week since she's learned them for varying amounts of time.
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
teb wrote:Skeenan,
I wasn't in any way slamming you.
Also, I just meant that comment as a general statement just to see what others thought.
teb
Nope, didn't take it that way at all!
Just wanted to clarify my term "definition", so to speak... 
And I do know what you mean—as it seems to be the latest "fad", I'm sure that there are many advertising themselves as "natural horsemanship" trainers, to take advantage of the demand...
I do enjoy watching trainers like Pat Parelli... I like that he works with horses from their standpoint, not the human standpoint... understanding horse behavior is half the battle...
Well then there's that "pony boy" dude with the hair and the "Indian" accent who grew up in Brooklyn or something.. and it is all a staged act, costumes and all... mind you he is Really Cute.
A lot of the "natural horsemanship" guys run around the country doing "clinics" all the time, which are nothing more than staged shows.
One of the things I have learned about paying for training is checkout other horses they have "trained" before you break out your wallet. And get to the bottom of exactly where the horse was when that trainer started with him.
A couple of years ago, I had a nice 3yo filly. We broke her to saddle, jog, a little lope. She was trail ridden a couple of weeks and pretty safe. I made a deal with a race trainer to board some of his mares & babies & he would take my filly... at the time he wanted me to take her to a fellow (for these purposes, let's call him "Dave") in Lexington, who would "leg her up." When I got there, it was just a nice little barn and fields. I wondered (still new to the business, though, and didn't question) how he was going to "leg her up." Later conversations with the trainer indicated he was paying this guy something like $35 a day. Then I asked him exactly where the filly was working since there was no track at that farm.... and the trainer flipped out.. he thought Dave was at a training center there. I told the trainer that was not where we delivered her to. The following summer, I went to see my filly at a track where one of the trainer's assistants had one of the strings. She told me Dave had done a great job breaking the filly but she was not that far along because they had just gotten her at the track a few weeks earlier, and Dave had taken his time breaking her, and she had been difficult.
LESSON: Dave was a liar and a cheat. He told the trainer he was at a training facility, but when I got the address from him and took the filly there it was just a farm. He maybe threw a saddle on her a few times, ascertained she was broke, and then sucked about $3,000 out of the trainer. Delivered her to the assistant at a different track and told them he had "finally" got her broke. Dave would have been laughed off any track or serious farm in America, so he found his "niche"... all the other horses at that farm were there to be "made into riding horses" or schooled in some way but I never saw any tack there beyond halters.
My sister rides at a fairly fancy barn. When she got her first horse a few years back, she spoke reverently about the Dave-like trainers in the barn. Not a one of them could have come near to even touching the stock I deal with every day. And when the trainer was unable to deal with a horse, his explanation to her would always be some incredible fabrication (this horse was beaten.. that one must have been traumatized in a trailer.. etc .etc . etc. ad nauseum) relating to OTTB's I sent her. In each case I knew the entire history of the horse.. and they were not NEARLY so difficult as these high $$ "trainers" made them out to be, nor had anything like those fabricated stories happened. After a couple of years (and getting cheated by one of them pretty thoroughly on a couple of deals) my sister learned that just because they SAID they were trainers didn't mean they could ACTUALLY TRAIN anything. My rule of thumb regarding getting outside work done with a horse, that I have to pay for, is that I will work with the horse myself until I stop being able make any progress with the horse... maybe cool it off for two weeks and try again, but if all else fails I have options that have worked VERY well for me in the past and will ship the horse there. A lot of these fancy barns have trainers who charge by the HOUR!! to work with a horse.. if I have a problem horse, who is really a problem horse not just a baby acting babyish that still seems to be learning things I try to teach, I send it to a trainer, a SERIOUS trainer, who charges by the day or month. If I have a son-of-a-buck colt that just keeps on bucking and looks like trying to be a rodeo horse, despite two months of patient handling... who rears and strikes all the time despite consistent correction.. I have a pal who is a real cowboy and charges $500 a month (including board) and you get a horse back with all the buck and bad behavior gone. And that horse worked each and every single day. I've got another fellow that does an awesome job with babies and I won't post what he charges because it is too cheap to be published.
The other thing that happened to my sister... after that trainer cheated her, she declined any more help from him for her next horse.. so he ran around the barn telling everyone it was crazy and a killer and he had told her he wouldn't work with it. He got the barn girls so worked up they wouldn't even lead the horse to let him out. He made her life there fairly miserable... fortunately there was a young very good dressage fellow who had just started there and she worked with him. The horse turned out wonderful, people would gather to watch him work...
A lot of the "natural horsemanship" guys run around the country doing "clinics" all the time, which are nothing more than staged shows.
One of the things I have learned about paying for training is checkout other horses they have "trained" before you break out your wallet. And get to the bottom of exactly where the horse was when that trainer started with him.
A couple of years ago, I had a nice 3yo filly. We broke her to saddle, jog, a little lope. She was trail ridden a couple of weeks and pretty safe. I made a deal with a race trainer to board some of his mares & babies & he would take my filly... at the time he wanted me to take her to a fellow (for these purposes, let's call him "Dave") in Lexington, who would "leg her up." When I got there, it was just a nice little barn and fields. I wondered (still new to the business, though, and didn't question) how he was going to "leg her up." Later conversations with the trainer indicated he was paying this guy something like $35 a day. Then I asked him exactly where the filly was working since there was no track at that farm.... and the trainer flipped out.. he thought Dave was at a training center there. I told the trainer that was not where we delivered her to. The following summer, I went to see my filly at a track where one of the trainer's assistants had one of the strings. She told me Dave had done a great job breaking the filly but she was not that far along because they had just gotten her at the track a few weeks earlier, and Dave had taken his time breaking her, and she had been difficult.
LESSON: Dave was a liar and a cheat. He told the trainer he was at a training facility, but when I got the address from him and took the filly there it was just a farm. He maybe threw a saddle on her a few times, ascertained she was broke, and then sucked about $3,000 out of the trainer. Delivered her to the assistant at a different track and told them he had "finally" got her broke. Dave would have been laughed off any track or serious farm in America, so he found his "niche"... all the other horses at that farm were there to be "made into riding horses" or schooled in some way but I never saw any tack there beyond halters.
My sister rides at a fairly fancy barn. When she got her first horse a few years back, she spoke reverently about the Dave-like trainers in the barn. Not a one of them could have come near to even touching the stock I deal with every day. And when the trainer was unable to deal with a horse, his explanation to her would always be some incredible fabrication (this horse was beaten.. that one must have been traumatized in a trailer.. etc .etc . etc. ad nauseum) relating to OTTB's I sent her. In each case I knew the entire history of the horse.. and they were not NEARLY so difficult as these high $$ "trainers" made them out to be, nor had anything like those fabricated stories happened. After a couple of years (and getting cheated by one of them pretty thoroughly on a couple of deals) my sister learned that just because they SAID they were trainers didn't mean they could ACTUALLY TRAIN anything. My rule of thumb regarding getting outside work done with a horse, that I have to pay for, is that I will work with the horse myself until I stop being able make any progress with the horse... maybe cool it off for two weeks and try again, but if all else fails I have options that have worked VERY well for me in the past and will ship the horse there. A lot of these fancy barns have trainers who charge by the HOUR!! to work with a horse.. if I have a problem horse, who is really a problem horse not just a baby acting babyish that still seems to be learning things I try to teach, I send it to a trainer, a SERIOUS trainer, who charges by the day or month. If I have a son-of-a-buck colt that just keeps on bucking and looks like trying to be a rodeo horse, despite two months of patient handling... who rears and strikes all the time despite consistent correction.. I have a pal who is a real cowboy and charges $500 a month (including board) and you get a horse back with all the buck and bad behavior gone. And that horse worked each and every single day. I've got another fellow that does an awesome job with babies and I won't post what he charges because it is too cheap to be published.
The other thing that happened to my sister... after that trainer cheated her, she declined any more help from him for her next horse.. so he ran around the barn telling everyone it was crazy and a killer and he had told her he wouldn't work with it. He got the barn girls so worked up they wouldn't even lead the horse to let him out. He made her life there fairly miserable... fortunately there was a young very good dressage fellow who had just started there and she worked with him. The horse turned out wonderful, people would gather to watch him work...
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Well, I scheduled an appointment yesterday for the trainer to start working with my filly. He worked with her respect issues, he didn't let her get pushy or anything like that. He took her into the arena and used a stick with a string type thing attached to desensitize her (using the string like part) and teach her to stand quietly no matter where the string type thing was flicked, I'm not sure how to better describe it, except as an extension of his hand.
He started her lungework again from scratch, and within a few moments, she was going beautifully at the walk, trot, and canter. He even had her doing an extended trot and a gentle lope and dealt with her quietly, calmly, gently, and firmly whenever she acted up a little. It was my first time seeing someone else working with my horse, and her gaits are so fluid and ground covering that I can't wait to find out what she feels like once she's under saddle.
He's going to take his time and wait until we both feel she's ready (based on her response to groundwork, etc) to start her, but he says normally it occurs around week 2 or 3 of training. He thinks that after a week or two of riding her himself, that I should be able to get on her back without a problem.
From what I've noticed about the horses he's trained, that they're very tractable and accepting of whoever is on their back. She's already calming down and has been willing to work and go along with everything he's asked of her. He says that he trains his horses to respond to leg aides so that if I ever wanted to ride without using the reins, that it would be feasible. And from what I've seen, he's been right so far.
Once she gets done with her training, she'll have a strong foundation when it comes to manners, groundwork, and going willingly under saddle. He only trains them in western saddles, so it's going to be up to me and/or any future trainers to teach her English and when she's older, jumping.
I can't wait to get started with classical dressage on her. She seemed comfortable in both directions, even on a tiny circle, cantering, and seemed to be on the correct lead from what I saw. Her transitions were very smooth and her trot was ground covering. I'm so excited about this. I never thought that I'd be able to pick a horse with such movement or heart. Well, she really picked me, but still.
I think it would be a good idea, once she's comfy and happy under saddle, to take her out on the trails. It'd give her something to look forward to and would give us an awesome way to get to know each other better outside of the barn. Hopefully, it'll also teach her to look forward to being ridden and keep her interest without her becoming ring sour.
He started her lungework again from scratch, and within a few moments, she was going beautifully at the walk, trot, and canter. He even had her doing an extended trot and a gentle lope and dealt with her quietly, calmly, gently, and firmly whenever she acted up a little. It was my first time seeing someone else working with my horse, and her gaits are so fluid and ground covering that I can't wait to find out what she feels like once she's under saddle.
He's going to take his time and wait until we both feel she's ready (based on her response to groundwork, etc) to start her, but he says normally it occurs around week 2 or 3 of training. He thinks that after a week or two of riding her himself, that I should be able to get on her back without a problem.
From what I've noticed about the horses he's trained, that they're very tractable and accepting of whoever is on their back. She's already calming down and has been willing to work and go along with everything he's asked of her. He says that he trains his horses to respond to leg aides so that if I ever wanted to ride without using the reins, that it would be feasible. And from what I've seen, he's been right so far.
Once she gets done with her training, she'll have a strong foundation when it comes to manners, groundwork, and going willingly under saddle. He only trains them in western saddles, so it's going to be up to me and/or any future trainers to teach her English and when she's older, jumping.
I can't wait to get started with classical dressage on her. She seemed comfortable in both directions, even on a tiny circle, cantering, and seemed to be on the correct lead from what I saw. Her transitions were very smooth and her trot was ground covering. I'm so excited about this. I never thought that I'd be able to pick a horse with such movement or heart. Well, she really picked me, but still.
I think it would be a good idea, once she's comfy and happy under saddle, to take her out on the trails. It'd give her something to look forward to and would give us an awesome way to get to know each other better outside of the barn. Hopefully, it'll also teach her to look forward to being ridden and keep her interest without her becoming ring sour.
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
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jumper77
- Maiden Special Weight
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:52 pm
- Location: way down there
Rushtawin wrote:
Has anyone else encountered the following scenario... you pay the money for a full month of board and to reserve a stall so that you can move your horse within the week, only to have them call your barn and claim that you said stuff against the barn your horse is currently at? And then have the people at the current barn think that you gave them a bad rep? I walked in and found most of that out and was more than just slightly irked.
I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to be at either of those barns. Too much drama. Ain't it a shame we horsepeople are so crazy?
Sounds like you might have found a good trainer. Good luck!
Okay, this is a mixed good/bad post.
Good: After 6 days of working with my filly (since the 13th), the trainer rode her on the night of the 19th, and she didn't buck, rear, cowspin, or kick out. She also didn't take off or try to get rid of him. Actually, she was quite quiet and they walked around with a three second jog. And it was just using a halter and attached lead. You could tell she was ready to let him get on her, and he'd worked with her until she was ready to trust him enough to get on her back.
Bad: The night before, she managed to scrape up her fetlock pretty badly which I picked up on right before her lesson on the 19th, but to me, it looked like there was just mud and a scratch there, and since I didn't have my contacts or glasses around, I couldn't evaluate it any more closely than that. So I asked the trainer to peek at it since I'd noticed a little tiny itty bitty bit of swelling.
At the time he looked at it, he thought it was a superficial scrape and since she hadn't been turned out, that it might just be her swelling a little tiny bit from just standing around the stall. He didn't think it was anything deep, so after he finished her less, he put antibiotic salve on it since he said he thought it might be affected, added gauze, and lightly wrapped it so as not to cut off her circulation.
But yesterday, when I went to clean it out and to check on the little bit of swelling, I noticed it wasn't just a superficial scrape thanks to my friend confirming that what I noticed was a little flap of skin (about the size of one of my smaller fingernails) and the area underneath it was the part that was infected. So she suggested that I clean it out with povidone iodine (10% diluted somewhat with water) and iodine surgical scrub (7.5%), which I did. Afterwards, she let me have a little bit of Fura-zone and I wiped a bit of that on the wound.
I would have liked to cold hose her leg to keep the swelling down (as it'd gone down a little when she walked around outside), but the barn manager wasn't around to help me find where they put the hoses since they usually put them away every night.
So I called the vet, not out to the barn, but just to get advice on how to follow up on this. He said to clean it out 1-2x a day, and to let her have a gram of bute once a day (or twice as needed) to prevent the swelling. He said that cold hosing it would also help to keep down the swelling and that cleaning it out with diluted iodine and using BlueCoat or Furazone should help it heal and that wrapping it would put pressure on the wound to help it heal faster and help keep it clean and the leg less swollen.
Good news: Although she's not happy with having to have her ankle cleaned out (I mean, it stings! I don't really blame her and it's sore too!) she was willing to let me work with it, even though sometimes I had to remind her that I wouldn't tolerate any aggressive moves on her part. I rewarded her by scratching her forehead and poll every time she settled down and behaved for me as I went to go get another gauze pad each time I'd used one up cleaning out the wound. Overall, she stood relatively quietly although it was evident she was thinking about kicking at me. What she didn't realize was how determined I was to clean it out, so she accepted the idea. Maybe she is growing up a little after all.
Neutral news: The trainer wants to take her totally off her grain, which is a scoop of 14% SafeChoice in addition to high quality alfalfa. She's still growing and after missing two meals of the SafeChoice, I'm starting to see faint outlines of her ribs. I'm having her teeth floated and she's due to be wormed this month so I'll ask the vet today when he/she comes out to the farm about whether or not to leave her on the grain. I think since she's growing that it's a good idea to keep her on it, especially since she's been having to work at a moderate pace for about an hour each day. She has developed muscle tone, but I really think that she should stay on the grain. And as the owner, thankfully, it's my choice. I mean yes, high quality alfalfa hay is great, but I'm not convinced it will meet ALL of her nutritional needs at this point.
Good: After 6 days of working with my filly (since the 13th), the trainer rode her on the night of the 19th, and she didn't buck, rear, cowspin, or kick out. She also didn't take off or try to get rid of him. Actually, she was quite quiet and they walked around with a three second jog. And it was just using a halter and attached lead. You could tell she was ready to let him get on her, and he'd worked with her until she was ready to trust him enough to get on her back.
Bad: The night before, she managed to scrape up her fetlock pretty badly which I picked up on right before her lesson on the 19th, but to me, it looked like there was just mud and a scratch there, and since I didn't have my contacts or glasses around, I couldn't evaluate it any more closely than that. So I asked the trainer to peek at it since I'd noticed a little tiny itty bitty bit of swelling.
At the time he looked at it, he thought it was a superficial scrape and since she hadn't been turned out, that it might just be her swelling a little tiny bit from just standing around the stall. He didn't think it was anything deep, so after he finished her less, he put antibiotic salve on it since he said he thought it might be affected, added gauze, and lightly wrapped it so as not to cut off her circulation.
But yesterday, when I went to clean it out and to check on the little bit of swelling, I noticed it wasn't just a superficial scrape thanks to my friend confirming that what I noticed was a little flap of skin (about the size of one of my smaller fingernails) and the area underneath it was the part that was infected. So she suggested that I clean it out with povidone iodine (10% diluted somewhat with water) and iodine surgical scrub (7.5%), which I did. Afterwards, she let me have a little bit of Fura-zone and I wiped a bit of that on the wound.
I would have liked to cold hose her leg to keep the swelling down (as it'd gone down a little when she walked around outside), but the barn manager wasn't around to help me find where they put the hoses since they usually put them away every night.
So I called the vet, not out to the barn, but just to get advice on how to follow up on this. He said to clean it out 1-2x a day, and to let her have a gram of bute once a day (or twice as needed) to prevent the swelling. He said that cold hosing it would also help to keep down the swelling and that cleaning it out with diluted iodine and using BlueCoat or Furazone should help it heal and that wrapping it would put pressure on the wound to help it heal faster and help keep it clean and the leg less swollen.
Good news: Although she's not happy with having to have her ankle cleaned out (I mean, it stings! I don't really blame her and it's sore too!) she was willing to let me work with it, even though sometimes I had to remind her that I wouldn't tolerate any aggressive moves on her part. I rewarded her by scratching her forehead and poll every time she settled down and behaved for me as I went to go get another gauze pad each time I'd used one up cleaning out the wound. Overall, she stood relatively quietly although it was evident she was thinking about kicking at me. What she didn't realize was how determined I was to clean it out, so she accepted the idea. Maybe she is growing up a little after all.
Neutral news: The trainer wants to take her totally off her grain, which is a scoop of 14% SafeChoice in addition to high quality alfalfa. She's still growing and after missing two meals of the SafeChoice, I'm starting to see faint outlines of her ribs. I'm having her teeth floated and she's due to be wormed this month so I'll ask the vet today when he/she comes out to the farm about whether or not to leave her on the grain. I think since she's growing that it's a good idea to keep her on it, especially since she's been having to work at a moderate pace for about an hour each day. She has developed muscle tone, but I really think that she should stay on the grain. And as the owner, thankfully, it's my choice. I mean yes, high quality alfalfa hay is great, but I'm not convinced it will meet ALL of her nutritional needs at this point.
"The best things in life are worth waiting for"
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KamiBrooks
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 12:00 am
deleted as a repeat... sorry
Last edited by KamiBrooks on Sat Jan 21, 2006 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KamiBrooks
- Starters Handicap
- Posts: 575
- Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 12:00 am
Is he looking to lower her calories or her protien? High quality alfalfa (like dairy quality) can get over 20% protien. If you take away the grain calories, then she'll need more alfafa to meet her calorie needs, so her total protien will be higher. Check to see if your barn has tested hay, if so they can give you the protien level.
If the goal is to lower protien, then switch to a higher fat/lower protien grain or to a mixed hay (but then check the calcium levels of what you're using for a young hores)
Not sure what area you're in, but Progressive Nutrition have some good quality feeds that are formulated to balance specific hay types so that she will get the vitamines, minerals, fatty acids, etc. They're along the same lines as safechoice, excpet that the feed is balanced for the type of hay used and is designed for hay to be the primary source of calories They're at http://www.prognutrition.com/EquineProducts.htm
In my area I need some sort of grain/feed because our ground is selenium deficient. Other areas of the country are not like this.
Good to hear that she's doing so much better!
If the goal is to lower protien, then switch to a higher fat/lower protien grain or to a mixed hay (but then check the calcium levels of what you're using for a young hores)
Not sure what area you're in, but Progressive Nutrition have some good quality feeds that are formulated to balance specific hay types so that she will get the vitamines, minerals, fatty acids, etc. They're along the same lines as safechoice, excpet that the feed is balanced for the type of hay used and is designed for hay to be the primary source of calories They're at http://www.prognutrition.com/EquineProducts.htm
In my area I need some sort of grain/feed because our ground is selenium deficient. Other areas of the country are not like this.
Good to hear that she's doing so much better!
I'm not a nutritionist... but have been warned by all and sundry and my vet about over-doing protein for horses. Mare's milk is about 12% protein. Oats are about 11% and Alfalfa is SIXTEEN PERCENT. Too much protein will strip their kidneys. If you cut her grain, it has to be made up in other foodstuffs. You can't cut grain without upping hay. Alfalfa MIX is fine but pure alfalfa, as her only ration, is not. If her Safe Choice is a compound feed with molasses, it may be she needs a switch to oats to reduce the sugar in her diet (think hyperactive kids and candy bars). Regardless, she is still a filly and should be getting 3-4% of her total body weight per day in food. Whatever kind of food. So if she is 900 lbs, she needs about 36 lbs of food. My horses have free choice hay, and we feed all the non-brood or lactating horses oats. For the broodmares and lactating mares I have a 14% broodmare mix.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....