Is it time for A.I.?

[arganaut]

Is it time for the thoroughbred world to embrace the concept of artificial insemination?

Why is it allowed in the standardbred world and not thoroughbreds?

Think of the benefits-

1. Stallions no longer need to shuttle
2. Risk of injury to mare and stallion is drastically reduced
2. No need to serve up to 3 mares a day
3. Mares would not need to travel all over the world
4. No associated costs for travelling a mare and a stallion
5. A stallion could have his sperm frozen at 3 or 4 and return to the racetrack
6. When we lose a stallion all is not completely lost for the owner(s) and mare owner(s) especially if the death is premature and the stallion goes on to be a runaway success
7. Numbers of frozen sperm released each year could be capped

What do you think?

Please let me know all of your views for and against as I am researching an article on this topic for a thoroughbred magazine and eveyone's valuable feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Is it time for A.I.?
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[austique]

For me I'm coming around to the fact that AI would be really, really nice. I think it will take down stud fees (which while we're on the subject increasingly appear to be set by seriously deluded people) and cutting out shipping and huge KY board bills will help alot (more money for stud fees!). Not to mention improved safety, less risk of disease and way less stress on mare and foal. The flip side...prices of horses will go down (happened in QH industry), but I think you'll still be able to make a profit same as you can now. As Sam as mentioned and I agree, the great state of KY has a vested interest in making sure it never happens.

Now where Sam and I don't agree, I would like to see a book limit, a reasonable AI book limit. I think AI unchecked can narrow the gene pool to a dangerous degree (look at the dairy industry). Culling inferior stallions more quickly is a good thing, but some of the less commercial guys who turn out to be good sires will end up in Serbia before we find out their worth or they'll never make it to the shed in the first place.

I think other countries would have to move to AI before the U.S. will succumb to any pressure.

[sprucie]

Actually one of the big advantages with shipped semen/AI is that you CAN get semen from a stallion anywhere in the world without having to ship the mare and foal, and HELP preserve uncommon bloodlines. As far as limiting book sizes, that would have to be up to the stallion owners, because the JC would be sued for restriction of trade.

[LSB]

This issue has been debated endlessly on this BB and others. I would think if you do a search you can find some of the previous discussions.

I would like to see a book limit, a reasonable AI book limit. I think AI unchecked can narrow the gene pool to a dangerous degree (look at the dairy industry).

There is no way a book limit can be set by a governing body, ie the JC, because that would consitute restraint of trade. Either the stallion owners have to do it themselves, or the mare owners (through lack of support). And so far both those groups have proven unwilling to do so.

[summerhorse]

There would be no book limits set but the market would set them soon enough, like within 2-3 years when their $100,000 foal isn't selling for $20,000.

the benefits far outweigh the downside but it would release the stranglehold the big boys have on the breeding industry (and the money) and help the little guy. they won't let that go without a fight.

[Sysonby]

There would be no book limits set but the market would set them soon enough, like within 2-3 years when their $100,000 foal isn't selling for $20,000.

It's already happening. Note the wild swings in last years prices even with Demi O'Byrne propping them up at the big sales:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/au ... us#pagetop

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/au ... us#pagetop

[summerhorse]

There would be no book limits set but the market would set them soon enough, like within 2-3 years when their $100,000 foal isn't selling for $20,000.

It's already happening. Note the wild swings in last years prices even with Demi O'Byrne propping them up at the big sales:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/au ... us#pagetop

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/au ... us#pagetop

Yup! The market isn't nearly as dumb as many uh, neigh-sayers would have you believe. Flood the market with too much of a good (or a bad!) thing and watch those prices fall! As you can see you don't need AI for that. A poster recently got a decent looking well bred Fusachi Pegasus for around $10,000. Yes, $10,000! he may not be the best FP out there but he is hardly something to hide in a closet either!

A smart stallion manager will limit the books, choose the mares carefully and still be able to charge big stud fees 10 years down the road if the stallion is any good. Greedy owners/managers may flood the market but how long will they be able to do that with how many stallions before breeders finally catch on and sit back and wait and see what happens before they pay that big stud fee HOPING for a return at the yearling or 2 year old sales. Heck we know you don't need that great pedigree NOW at the 2 year old sales if you have a good looker who can run a bit and those come from all sorts of bloodlines and fees.

[Sam]

Now where Sam and I don't agree, I would like to see a book limit, a reasonable AI book limit.

That's not entirely correct. I never said I was against book size limits, just that it can't legally be done with AI anymore than it can legally be done with live cover.

[brogers]

I think it will take down stud fees (which while we're on the subject increasingly appear to be set by seriously deluded people)

I am not convinced that it will, nor that service fees appear to be set by seriously deluded people.

The whole debate on numbers, over-production and service fee value seems to hinge on one important fact. No one forces a mare owner to use a specific stallion. They don't put a gun to your head and say you must breed to a certain stallion or else. Broodmare owners are able to make a choice. If a stallion owner stands a stallion that breeders don't like, it doesn't matter how many magic tricks they try to entice breeders, they won't get any mares. That is an inescapable fact.

Basic market economics of supply and demand dictate what service fees are set at. Stallion owners set a fee determined by their goal as far as mares covered (whatever this may be). A stallion manager is only deluded, or should I say fooling him/herself, if he sets a fee that is so high that no one in their right mind would breed to the horse. Can you name a stallions that applies to? The market keeps everyone in check to a certain extent.

It is obvious to anyone in this industry that the market has got increasingly discriminant on what it will allow to become a commerical stallion. Even without AI (which has the potential to be more anti-competitive than people seem to realize), the North American stallion market is getting smaller and smaller each year. Horses retiring off the track now to stand, even in regional markets, need to be a much better horse than in previous years. The Breeders' Cup has realized this which is why they now ask for increased nominations.

If anything we need MORE stallions standing at stud. This would increase the supply of stallions, the level of competition and presumably drive down service fees as more stallions competed for the same number of mares (not the same mares competing for lesser numbers of stallions). Because it seems that the level of competition has polarized to the point where unless you are a large conglomerate with bucketloads of cash, the utopia of more stallions seems unachievable, thus making AI, with its promise of breaking down the barriers seem an attractive proposition.

There is no veterinary reason not to allow AI, nor a registration concern given current parental testing, the concern is obviously (and anyone can feel free to add further concerns here) what effect it will have on the breed as far as competition and gene pool narrowing.

Will AI mean that breeders will be given greater choice. Yes and No. From a local stallion perspective there is no doubt that the fall in numbers of stallions covering will increase further as almost all stallions can cover more mares making competition hotter still.

It is going to be a truly unique situation where a Danzig or a Red Ransom gets a shot. More than likely this will never happen. Thus, with unregulated (and there is no way to regulate it) AI allowing existing stallions to serve as many mares as the market will bear, competition will ensure that locally there will be less choice in stallions, not more which is what is needed.

I can hear the posts being typed already "But I can get a straw from anywhere in the world which means that there will be greater competition"

Will there be?

The unanswered question of semen transportation aside, just because you might be able to get a Pivotal/Monsun/Singspiel/Miontjeu straw from Europe doesn't necessarily mean that you want it.

Firstly, breeders seem to think that stallion managers just take the money and run with it when they sell a season in a stallion. Nothing could be further from the truth. Stallion Managers (at least the good ones) invest a lot of time and money into making the stallion appeal to the buying market place. They make sure that agents, trainers and owners are well appraised of the worth of the stallion so that when you offer a yearling in the sale ring by the stallion the market is well aware of what it represents. Of course it is in the stallion managers best interest to do this but you must recognise that this is a dollar factor in the service fee that you pay. You don't just but the season for what the stallion might or might not produce with your mare but a certain dollar value of the season is the intrinsic worth of dealing with the farm itself and the expectation of their marketing dollar and expertise being brought to the table.

Will AI straws carry the same amount of intrinsic worth? I have some concerns here. If a farm was selling a straw half way around the world, would they feel the moral responsibility that they currently hold in their own back yard? I don't think so. It is more than likely that a mare owner will be left to their own devices and have to do their best when that yearling hits the sale ring. Sure, some of the bigger farms who already have satellites and agents set up around the world will have the infrastructure in place to provide the market support. But then aren't we back in the same position that we don't want to be - less stallions being controlled by less people - but this time right around the world? Which leads me to another point

The guys that are on top now, and controlling the market, got there for a reason. They are smart (some smarter than others), have money (some with more than others) and got to the top for a reason. Don't you think that even with AI they are going to find away to stay on top and use the process to their benefit? Some breeders seem to think that you are going to be able to choose from a plethora of stallions from around the world but what it will come down to is marketing and these guys are the best in the business. They will set up fiefdoms and agencies throughout the world and sell straws of the most popular stallions into all the markets they can as mutually exclusive markets. 150 to North America, 50 to Europe, 50 to Japan, 150 to Australia, 50 to South America, 50 to South Africa, etc etc.

Right now the thoroughbred is not as inbred as we are all led to believe. While the stud book has been closed (in one way or another) for some time, the genetic diversity of the thoroughbred, when comparted to other equine breeds is quite healthy. We are a long way off having problems with the genetic diversity of the breed which afflict some breeds throughout the world but this does not make us immune. Would the introduction of AI hasten this potential problem? Even without AI we have dropped 500 stallions off the registry in just 3 years (we are now down to 3500 stallions for 58,000 mares) which is the problem I referred to at the start of this post. If AI was introduced and we dropped another 1000 stallions off in the next 3 years, would this put us in a better or worse position?

Interestingly we (America) are actually in a better position than other countries in the world. The country with next highest broodmare population in Australia (where shuttle sires come in from all over the world and competition is cutthroat) the stallion population, serving some 25,000 mares, has dropped to just over 800 stallions. That is one stallion for every 31 mares. If we had that ratio in America we'd have just 1870 stallions to choose from.

If someone can convince me that we are not going to be in a worse position in a few years time, with less stallions serving more mares and the stallions being controlled by less and less people, I am ready to listen to the argument. Right now natural cover is actually working in our favor. It is stopping the big guys from getting too big and telling us what to breed to. I for one would prefer to keep it that way.

[LSB]

Great post, brogers.

[summerhorse]

Of course they could sell straws everywhere BUT stallions aren't like bulls, their semen doesn't ship or feeze nearly as well. There is also a reason why some stallions don't shuttle to other countries, they just aren't going to produce horses that are going to be that suited to the conditions there. It wouldn't take more than a few runners to figure that out. But if they are marketing the horse there I don't see them just forsaking their mare owners somewhere else. Thanks to the internet the world is a very small place now, word gets around fast.

I think it will bring fees down some but I don't think it will be a huge amount. I think it will simply allow people to reach better stallions (fee wise) without having to factor in shipping and mare care to their costs. The market will adjust but I don't think it will have the HUGE reaching effects on fees that some people think. We should BE so lucky...