Exploit

[Sam]

are these numbers at all impressive when you consider the amount of Storm Cat sons at stud? Only 8 in the top 100 in AEI? Only 8??? Considering the mares these stallions are by???

See, that's the kind of comment that makes me think you are a troll seeking attention. It demonstrates you really don't have that much of a clue about stallions. After this post, you won't be getting any more from me.

how many Storm Cat first year sires are there?

10 not counting the ones in other countries who don't have runners in North America.

Gone West has 4 top earners and Storm Cat has 10...how many Storm Cat sons are out there compared to Gone West sons?

Storm Cat and Gone West started their careers in the same year... Storm Cat (1103) has 136 more named foals than Gone West (967). Not enough to make the kind of difference you are implying.

[Rokeby Forever]

No Sam, I asked how many Gone West stallions are out there compared to Storm Cat stallions...not foals.

I'd like to hear how saying that the top stallion in the world siring only 8 of the top 100 stallions in AEI is a positive. Namecalling won't get you out of having to justify that this is a poor number. What it says it that of all the Storm Cat stallions out there (some standing for 15 years or more) and grandchildren now racing, only 8 stallions out of 100 are in the top AEI. If Storm Cat just turned 12 years old, OK...let's argue that his sons haven't stood long enough to build up a high AEI by foals. But Storm Cat is well past 20.

No understanding of sires? Do you have any understanding that earnings by 95% of horse owners keeps them in business (as opposed to the high end racing folks that don't need purse money), and as such, sons of Storm Cat sons are just not helping to keep these people in business?

[Sam]

backtracking...

Just letting everyone know, I'm not a straigh-up troll. I'm not even a troll in disguise. If we're putting limits on an acceptable numbers of posts, I need to know about it, so I won't be considered a troll.

Nah... you're cool. It's not the number of posts, it's the tone. Rokeby is throwing things out there and daring people to disagree then flaming away when they do (which is an oddball accusation coming from since I've been accused of doing the same thing).

that was a really brilliant post

That's a bit of an overstatement, but thanks

With regard to the need for gelding. I'm of the opinion that more horses should be left horses and left off the steroids while racing, and given a chance at stud, to see which ones will rise from the pit to stand head and shoulders above the others.

I'll agree with you about the drugs, but not about the breeding. Not every horse should be bred. There's already too many horses out there with first rate pedigrees that are clogging up the claiming ranks, I don't believe in breeding trash. In fact, not only do I think we could geld 70% of the colts out there, but I wish spaying mares was cheaper because most of them should be removed from the gene pool as well. To me, the key to being a responsible breeder is knowing which horses should be bred and which should not.

January first is officially every North American TBs birthday... it should also be known as "Geld all your 4yos" day. Trust me, you know by a horse's 4th year whether he has any real talent. I don't like seeing nickle claimers full of 5yo+ horses. Anything running in claimers over the age of 4 should be cut.

[Rokeby Forever]

My Goodness!!! I just looked up the top 100 sires by AEI this year.

Sweetsouthernsaint, standing for $3,500 and with only one foal with earnings of more than 150K this year (Sweetnorthernsaint) has only 8 sons of Storm Cat with a better AEI. How many champion mares, top producers, and top bluehen families has Storm Cat been bred to in the last 15 years to sire only 8 stallions with a better AEI than Sweetsouthernsaint?

Hmmmm.....Sam, do you know anything about stallions? I'm a troll? You're a troll and 1/4 refuting me. You're right...discussion over.

[Sam]

Okay.. one last post. This was too good to pass up...

No Sam, I asked how many Gone West stallions are out there compared to Storm Cat stallions...not foals.

At stud? Brisnet shows 191 versus Gone West's 81. That includes all the ones who are in other countries, have died in the last 3 years and/or don't have foals of racing age.

So let's see, ten of Storm Cat's 191 sons are in the current 100 sires -- 5%

Four of Gone West's 81 foals are on the current list of 100 sires -- 5%

Mr. Prospector has 11 sons (out of 283) in the top 100 by current earnings -- 4%

Doesn't seem like the numbers make that much of a difference to me.

By the way, you seem to think this is lifetime... I'm talking about the current ranking by 2006 earnings listed on Bloodhorse.

I'd like to hear how saying that the top stallion in the world siring only 8 of the top 100 stallions in AEI is a positive.

I don't recall saying it was a positive or a negative. I merely offered the numbers which show you are wildly overstating your opinion and offering it up as unsubstantiated fact.

Mr. Prospector has 12 sons on the 2006 AEI list.

Namecalling won't get you out of having to justify that this is a poor number.

That's a matter of opinion. I'd say having 4% of his sons on the list is pretty good considering the only stallion with more is Mr. Prospector (who has 12 out of 283 sons in the top 100 -- which is also 4%)

What it says it that of all the Storm Cat stallions out there (some standing for 15 years or more)

That would be quite a feat since Storm Cat has only been at stud for 18 years. His first crop was in 1989, which means his first sons likely stood their first year in 1993 -- 13 years -- and wouldn't have had foals racing until 1996 -- 10 years -- at the earliest.

Be enthusiastic about your opinion, but try not to exaggerate. You only discredit yourself.

only 8 stallions out of 100

8 of 191, actually.

are in the top AEI.

You seem to be living and dying by that stat. Again, you are aware that less then 30% of the stallions out there improve their mares and even fewer than that have AEIs over 1?

How many would you expect him to have ranked? He and Mr. Prospector make up 20% of the top one hundred stallions, and he has about 90 fewer sons at stud. No other stallion comes close to having as many sons on the list. I'd say your expectations go well beyond unreasonable and are flirting with absurd.

If Storm Cat just turned 12 years old, OK...let's argue that his sons haven't stood long enough to build up a high AEI by foals.

Again I have to wonder if you even have a clue what that stat represents.

But Storm Cat is well past 20.

If 23 is "well past 20" then I'm an old fart.

Do you have any understanding that earnings by 95% of horse owners keeps them in business (as opposed to the high end racing folks that don't need purse money), and as such, sons of Storm Cat sons are just not helping to keep these people in business?

And that has what to do with the price of tea in China?

Like I said... a troll looking for a fight. Look elsewhere, please.

[Rokeby Forever]

You have an interesting way of looking at things, Sam. Sort of like believing that elephants can fly.

As I wrote on my 4:40 message that Sweetsouthernsaint, standing at $3,500, and not getting mares worth any more than his stud fee, has a higher AEI than 183 out of 191 Storm Cat stallions and I'm supposed to believe that the sport is greatly benefitted by all these Storm Cat stallions polluting the landscape? Fine...send every mare you have to them. Let me know your bottom line in 6 years.

Uh, yeah...I'd say 23 is well past 20 for a horse. How long do you think they live? How long do you think a stallion can service a mare? How many horses never live to be 23?

And, you seem to be forgetting something when comparing Mr P to Storm Cat. Mr P's siring days are done. Storm Cat is still churning out colts that will have a future lower AEI as stallions than Sweetsouthernsaint (save 8 of them currently). I dare think that at least a few will stand for more than SSN's modest $3,500, as well. Future great investments for the breeder? I think not!

[Sam]

Okay.. I'm troll baiting now.. I can't help it.. this idiot is fun.

Sweetsouthernsaint, standing at $3,500, and not getting mares worth any more than his stud fee, has a higher AEI than 183 out of 191 Storm Cat stallions and I'm supposed to believe that the sport is greatly benefitted by all these Storm Cat stallions polluting the landscape?

He has a higher AEI than about 270 sons of Mr. Prospector, too. What's your point? It's still lower than over 75 other stallions who have more crops to race (which has an impact -- the more foals to race, the harder it is to make that number shift).

You're making it sound like it's some drastically superior number. He has an AEI of 1.54 compared to a CI of 1.02. He has exactly 3 crops to race with 56% starters and 34% winners. You seriously think he's good value simply because his AEI is higher than his CI?

Do you have any idea how easy it is to have one horse impact his AEI when he has less than 5 crops to race? Do you really think his AEI is going to look that good in 5 more years if he continues to have less than 65% starters and 45% winners?

You still haven't acknowledge the FACT that less than 30% of the stallions out there have AEIs greater than their CIs. Do you really want to limit the stallion pool to less than 30% of the stallions out there?

There's more to a good stallion than his AEI. A.P. Indy, Red Ransom, Storm Cat, Seeking The Gold, Deputy Minister, and Mt. Livermore all have AEIs lower than their CIs and they are considered some of the best stallions in the world.

Again I ask, just how many sons of Storm Cat do you think should be on the list, when Mr. Prospector (who, arguably, saw as good or better books of mares) has only 12 representatives from 283 sons? By your logic, if Storm Cat should have more than his 8, shouldn't Mr. Prospector have more than his 12?

As for Mr. Prospector's siring days being over.. that is correct, but you do know he only died about 3 years ago, right? That he has sons who are freshman sires this year?

I didn't say all the sons of Storm Cat at stud were a benefit. That's your spin. I even said more of them should be gelded, but offered you the numbers that show why standing a son of his is worth the gamble to some people. As I said in my first post, I'm not a fan of Storm Cat sons on the whole, there are too many of them at stud who shouldn't be. THIS stallion (Exploit) was given up on too soon, in my opinion.

Uh, yeah...I'd say 23 is well past 20 for a horse

Ah, but you didn't qualify that statement with "For a horse" the first time. All you said was "well past 20." I can't think of too may who would agree that 23 is well past 20.

[billl]

Rokeby, your statement about Sweetsouthernsaint can only be interpreted as this sire is very underrated and is capable of producing high quality horses. It does not support or weaken any position about Storm Cat's performance as sire of sires.

I feel in the middle of your controversy. I have to agree that Storm Cat line is characterized by offset knees , and some other conformational defaults, and unsoundness problems , but we have to remember that good horses occur in all shapes and sizes. It's irrefutable that he's doing an acceptable job since he is the predominant sire line in the leading sires list. I cannot say the same thing about A.P Indy.

Regarding Exploit, the thread originated bacause I do think he's a decent sire that people placed a lot of expectations on him. But he has good numbers and has been capable of producing some quality horses such as Knights Templar and EZ Warrior from a few crops.

[Rokeby Forever]

Sam, you've been proven to be an idiot.

I wrote that "Storm Cat is well past 20." and you don't interpret that to be meant in terms of horse age? I'm done with you....idiot!

Bill, Sweetnorthernsaint is an underrated sire that can possibly sire a nice horse for a very modest fee. However, he was never billed as a potential "top sire," wasn't the foal of a bluehen family, and didn't start off at a $20,000 fee to wind up at a $3,500 fee. Many, many sons of Storm Cat have. That's why they're failures no matter how you look at it.

[ASB]

Good posts Sam.

Rokeby... how come every time someone tries to reason with you, you get even MORE unreasonable? Ridiculous.

I think everyone would be well to ignore his/her rants.

[madelyn]

Too many saints in here... Sweetsouthernsaint is the sire of Sweetnorthernsaint, which can be confusing for the directionally challenged.. but I think it is Sweetsouthernsaint that is in Florida and stands for $3500.

[Sam]

Sam, you've been proven to be an idiot.

No, darling, the only proven idiot -- not to mention troll -- here is you.

You ask about Raging Fever's stud numbers... forgetting that horse is a MARE.

You ask how many first year sons Storm Cat has... then ignore it when you realize 8 of the 10 sons are ranked.

You make it sound like Sweetsouthernsaint has this hugely superior AEI... then ignore it when it's pointed out why they are where they are, how bad he really is as a sire and that they are most likely to fall drastically in the next 5 years.

I show you that stallions with books as good or better than Storm Cat has the same percentage of sons on the stallion lists and you ignore that, too.

It's been pointed out to you several times that less than 30% of the stallions out there have AEIs higher than their CIs.. another fact you continue to ignore because it's not convenient to your rant.

I ask again... Just how many sons of Storm Cat do you think should be on any of those lists? Do you expect all 10 of his first year sons to be ranked on the Freshman Sire's list -- when NO other stallion does? If he has 8 on the AEI list from 191 sons, shouldn't Mr. Prospector have more than 12 from 283 sons?

Stop dodging the question and be a man. Or are you afraid any answer you might give will show you for the unreasonable idiot you really are? Don't worry, you can't do any more damage to your image... I think most of us have figured out you're nothing but a troll looking for a fight.

I wrote that "Storm Cat is well past 20." and you don't interpret that to be meant in terms of horse age?

I was making fun of you at your own expense. I'm sorry you are too dense to see that.

Sweetnorthernsaint is an underrated sire that can possibly sire a nice horse for a very modest fee.

psssssssst, hey idiot... I think you mean SweetSOUTHERNsaint. Proofreading is a good thing.

Yeah, I suppose he can get you a nice horse... if you are willing to risk breeding to a stallion who gets 55% starters and 35% winners. I'd say he's more likely to get you a hayburner than a racehorse.

You stay locked in to those AEIs, idiot. Come back in 10 years and tell us how much you've made breeding to stallions who only offer a 50-50 chance of getting a starter.

Like I said... A troll who clearly doesn't have an effin clue what he's talking about.

Regarding Exploit, the thread originated because I do think he's a decent sire that people placed a lot of expectations on him. But he has good numbers and has been capable of producing some quality horses such as Knights Templar and EZ Warrior from a few crops.

Agreed. Just about all the Storm Cat sons go to stud with unreasonably high expectations -- a lot of stallions do, actually. Very few of them are able to meet those expectations. As I said, I'd like to see more of the Storm Cats gelded but THIS colt I wish had been moved to a smaller market with a more suitable stud fee and given more of a chance.

[KAL]

Okay... since I have a severe case of A.D.D and simply don't have the time, patience, or ability to read everything that has been written...

I am not a huge fan of Storm Cat, however so much have been expected of so many of his sons that it is hard to discuss him without much personal bias. He has been a, if not the, dominate sire for the past decade... his foals have sold well, some have run well, and some are even performing pretty darn well in the breeding shed (by the way, I think you'll also find many of his daughters producing nice runners for quite a time to come).

The problem with many Storm Cat sons is found with the types of mares, not necessarily quality or even quantity (although when breed to 200+ mares, it is pretty difficult to have decent % of any kind). For example: Taylormade will admit they had the "mix" slightly off when breeding both Forestry and Exploit. In the first couple years, they gave preferences to mares that turned out not to compliment the stallions as they had expected. Since making a correction, Forestry has improved (by the way, I am not sure he is worth $125,000, but anyone who says has not become an important stallion is simply, well, foolish).

Exploit was expected to do great things. However, he was breed to more distance laden mares (when a preference could be made) and it appears he threw more to his dam's side (as Sam has suggested) than his sire. Oops... anyway, I won't even say he was given up on too quickly, because I don't know what the "deal" was with the Koreans... but, in this business, virtually everything is for sale... if the price is right. Sure he was a disappointment at $15,000... but he stood at first for $30,000 + if I remember correctly... and he got a full book. So... lots of people were very wrong.

On another note... High Yield was poorly handled... I actually liked him quite a bit, however, as I stated to the people with me when I saw him, "... with his power, if you use him, you had better have a mare with bone...". Of course, I would never have used anything at Ashford... but I digress. Unfortunately, many of the HY's had decent size and more than adequate power... but, not the underpinnings to handle it (especially at age 2 when they were being pushed so hard). So, after 2 whole years of disappointment, (my the industry is really patient isn't it), he was deemed a failure and whisked off to France... and of course, now his foals are showing some talent... surprise, surprise, surprise.

I won't even get into Giant's Causeway... however, if you have a breeding to him you don't want to use, I'll find a mare. Isn't he the 2nd or 3rd leading sire on the GENERAL list (with only 3 crops running)? Hasn't he either lead or been in the top 3 of his class every year since his foals started running? Hasn't he sired horses that can run on turf, dirt, short, and long? My goodness, I don't even think the great Northern Dancer or the great Mr. Prospector had such a resounding start. Now, his fee and his handlers are a completely different story... and his sales results don't necessarily support his fee (of course, at this stage many of his better bred foals are not being put in the sales, because their connections are keeping them to race and, hopefully, stand at stud).

As for all the AEI... CI.... crap... you have to be able to evaluate those numbers with some intelligence. There are so many factors which can influence AEI one way or another, it should be used as a tool, not a basis for decisions. First, as a rule a young stallion's numbers can be greatly influenced by one single runner... which isn't a true indicator of overall quality. Second, because of the math, there is a lag effect which greatly effects young stallions... it is hard to get a good AEI with only a couple crops on the ground, the 2 yr. olds and even 3 yr. olds, simply haven't had time to help. Of course, the same holds for all stallions, but the more years at stud, the less the effect.

By the way, I wish, oh how I wish, I could say, "I am somewhat dating myself, but I remember when Peace Rules....". PEACE RULES? Holy moly... I consider myself young... and I remember seeing Arazi make his crazy BC Juvie move, like it was yesterday.... and I remember seeing John Henry on TV and thinking, wow! Friggin' PEACE RULES? Damn, I have Derby shirts still in plastic that are that old...

[Rokeby Forever]

Sam, Sam, Sam....no, darling, you're the idiot...here's why: (PS: I kinda like that darling thing associated with idiot!)

You would have argued that Mountain Cat was worth every penny of his $17,000 fee at one time - millionaire 2 year old, female family with plenty of nice mares. He wound up at a $1,000 fee before being sent to Turkey, and you'll say something like, "Well, Mr P has failures, too." That doesn't justify the incredible amount of failures by Storm Cat.

Storm Cat grandchildren do well as juveniles, granted. How many that don't show much at two become major successes as they age? Giant's Causeways are pretty good juveniles...about 40% hit the track...but of the 60% that don't race as juveniles, only about 1/3 make it to the track at all - so if they don't race early, they don't race at all. His best 2 sons, First Samurai and Sharmardal, didn't do much after their juvenile seasons, did they? That's why GC's AEI stinks...as do most sons of Storm Cat. Storm Cat himself didn't set the world on fire after winning the Pegasus, now did he?

Now, let's take Bluegrass Cat. Is he worth a $50,000 fee because he's a Storm Cat from a bluehen Phipps family? (Some nice horses in there that didn't become good sires like Rhythm, and if you go back to the 3rd dam, you'll find Oscillate, dam of Mutakdimm), but if 183 our of 191 Storm Cat sons have an AEI less than Sweetsouthernsaint, what chances does Bluegrass Cat have of being worth the money? Offhand, I think a lot of people spending $50,000 for a Bluegrass Cat foal expecting any kind of ROI are going to be saying "OUCH!!!" in 5 years, unless they breed to sell. Is it the horse's fault that he's standing at WinStar for $50,000 and not $10,000? Obviously not, but at $50,000 you'd think that his AEI in time will support the fee (especially with the better mares a $50,000 stallion will get), and there's an excellent chance it won't. Maybe breeders won't consider this as long as foals sell for 2X or 3X stud fee, but people looking to race should take note.

Is Mr P a failure by comparison? On a numbers basis, yes - but the lessons are never learned, are they? Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat them. There are plenty of Mr P sons out there not worth the shoes they're standing on...but the Mr P beat is concluding and there are lessons to be learned...by those willing to learn them. Storm Cat's beat will continue for some time to come.

You write about Sweetsouthernsaint, "Yeah, I suppose he can get you a nice horse... if you are willing to risk breeding to a stallion who gets 55% starters and 35% winners. I'd say he's more likely to get you a hayburner than a racehorse." Well, Forestry at $125,000 offers 61% starters and 39% winners. For very similiar numbers, is the difference between SSN's $3,500 fee and Forestry's $125,000 justified? No...but because a Forestry might cost $500,000 as a yearling and scratch out a stakes win, it'll become a sire somewhere. Forestry's fee is no doubt justified by his sales results and not how much his foals actually earn on the racetrack - but that's another topic for another day.

By the way, Giant's Causeway gets about 60% starters but only 29% winners...better chance at a hayburner than a racehorse, as you say? Methinks so. Coolmore/Ashford and Company have a lot to do with that, but results are results.

The problem with gelding sons of Storm Cat (most should be simply because of temperment) is that they're expensive and, no matter what a Storm Cat does on the racetrack, someone can promote the colt as a stallion by saying, "Well, there's La Troienne in the horse's 5th dam, so he's a ready made stallion," and the horse will still get 40 mares at the right price.

Let's take the $8 Million colt, Mr Sekiguchi. He's as well bred as a horse can be, out of the Weekend Surprise family of AP Indy. He just broke his maiden at 3 and clearly doesn't have stakes potential (or hasn't shown it to this point). Is Bob Baffert going to call Japan and say, "Gee, maybe we oughta cut this horse?" I don't speak Japanese, but I have the feeling Mr Sekiguchi might respond, "If you want to cut anything, how about your jugular?" I sense that he'll turn up as a stallion somewhere at a "breed to race" fee, sire some bad foals, and never be heard from again. So the beat goes on with Storm Cat.

Your move, comrade....

[Sam]

You would have argued that Mountain Cat was worth every penny of his $17,000 fee at one time

No, actually I would not. I never liked Mountain Cat. You would do best not to imply things I never said.

Very few Storm Cats stand for an appropriate stud fee, in my opinion (which I've now said about 3 times -- something you seem to be ignoring in your effort to be a troll). I don't feel Bluegrass Cat is worth the $50k he's been announced at, nor do I feel Giant's Causeway is worth the six figures he's currently listed at. However, it is incredibly premature to label Giant's Causeway a "failure". He's bad value at his current studfee, but he's not a failure by any stretch of the imagination. His numbers would be phenomenal if he were more appropriately priced (somewhere in the $50k range). It's not his numbers that make him a bad value, it's his stud fee -- which is a problem common to all Storm Cat sons.

#3 sire on the GENERAL sires list with over $7m in progeny earnings THIS YEAR
#1 on the Turf sires list with over $3m in progeny earnings THIS YEAR
#1 on the Third Crop sire's list with over $6m in earnings THIS YEAR

All of that on three crops to race. I don't know too many people who would turn down a share of that.

But you hang yourself on that AEI, jackass. There's more to a good stallion than his AEI, but that is apparently a lesson you will never learn... or you are too much of a troll to care.

Do you ever plan on taking your balls out of your mother's purse, being a man and answering the questions I've now posed 4 times.

Exactly how many sons of Storm Cat do you think should be in the top 100 of ANY sires list?

If you feel 8 of 191 is insufficient from Storm Cat, how many SHOULD be there and do you feel Mr. Prospector should have more than the 12 he currently has?

Come on, pussy. Answer the questions. Show us just how much of an unreasonable and illogical fool you really are. The more you duck and dodge the question, the more of a coward you are.

Is Mr P a failure by comparison? On a numbers basis, yes

really, there's no point in commenting on such an abysmally moronic statement.

Well, Forestry at $125,000 offers 61% starters and 39% winners. For very similiar numbers, is the difference between SSN's $3,500 fee and Forestry's $125,000 justified?

Who the hell is SSN now? Again, PROOFREAD. Better yet, try thinking before you post, it'll make for a refreshing change.

Once again, I'd like to point you to the multiple posts I've made stating that few Storm Cat sons stand for an appropriate figure. I realize your acknowledging them would make it impossible for you to continue on this idiotic rant of yours, but you should at least privately realize what a fool you are making of yourself.

Your move, comrade....

My move? You're an attention whore. I was enjoying playing with you last night, but now you bore me. Go piss up a rope, or at least try to steal a brain. The one you have obviously doesn't work.