turfway breakdowns

[mightyhijames]

i've heard that the number of breakdowns at turfway (polytrack) has increased dramatically this year. anyone have information/details?

[Des]

Louis is the breakdown research specialist on this board. He spends all his time looking at these type of info. He should be able to provide some answers for you.

[mlwinter]

With all the training and racing on the polytrack, it has lost its cushion and is compressing. If you look at the times, racing and works, they have increasingly gotten faster. I know a horse that worked 46 this weekend, which is pretty fast considering the weather and that the poly is slower anyway.

[MidwestTrainer]

The track has been much faster than last year. In my opinion polytrack is no t the answer to breadowns. Less medication, softer tracks(which can be done with a regular surface), and more aware(kinder) trainers.

I think what helps with polytrack is at first they are NOT able to pack it down to produce fast times. The problem with Arlington wasn't the "surface" it was the fact you might as well been running down 355. At any point all they had to do was add surface to the track to make a more respectable cushion and they would have slowed the breadowns from happening.

[Tucumcari]

Or trainers backing off when they should... that might help.... just a thought

[mlwinter]

So many of the tracks are having issues with their surfaces, but that doesn't mean that poly is the answer, it is still too new. But so many tracks are going and wanting to go to it. If it is going to compress and run thin, how is that any better than dirt.

I know Hoosier Parks surface was difficult to deal with this year do to the banked turns and all the rain we kept having. A lot of nights you were just running on the limestone underneath on the outside, and the inside was just terribly deep.

They say Mountaineer is super deep right now too, course that's when it hasn't been frozen....

Still the majority, as already stated, goes back to the trainer and the condition of the horses.

[MidwestTrainer]

So many of the tracks are having issues with their surfaces, but that doesn't mean that poly is the answer, it is still too new. But so many tracks are going and wanting to go to it. If it is going to compress and run thin, how is that any better than dirt.

I know Hoosier Parks surface was difficult to deal with this year do to the banked turns and all the rain we kept having. A lot of nights you were just running on the limestone underneath on the outside, and the inside was just terribly deep.

They say Mountaineer is super deep right now too, course that's when it hasn't been frozen....

Still the majority, as already stated, goes back to the trainer and the condition of the horses.

I know a couple of my owners wanted to go there becuase it was easier than Hawthorne, but with the trouble Hoosier was having I couldn't do it. It was just too risky for me. I hope they have better luck this season.

[horsenuts]

Remington Park had "Equitrack" nearly 20 years ago but abandoned it after 3 years or so because of lack of consistency. Calder had "Tartan Turf"(along the lines of artificial turf) 30 years back and abandoned it as well. I suspect Polytrack etc. may run into similar problems. Some of the Polytrack times are getting pretty fast as of late and with them come the old problems of breakdowns. Speed kills in more ways then one.

[ratherrapid]

whether polytrack is the answer to breakdowns is unknown to me. But, I agree with midwest trainer that it's easy(though maybe costly) to make conventional surfaces forgiving. I disagree with midwest trainer that soft training prevents breakdowns. How much more soft training is it going to take with track trainers career ending half of what they have every single year before we reach that understanding? anybody ever give thought that hard training makes horses tougher instead of weaker??? that's the one certain problem with polytrack that i see coming--horses will get even less work because there's less to worry about injury wise. the horse then moves to a conventional hard track without the requiste concussive work, and bam.

[MidwestTrainer]

whether polytrack is the answer to breakdowns is unknown to me. But, I agree with midwest trainer that it's easy(though maybe costly) to make conventional surfaces forgiving. I disagree with midwest trainer that soft training prevents breakdowns. How much more soft training is it going to take with track trainers career ending half of what they have every single year before we reach that understanding? anybody ever give thought that hard training makes horses tougher instead of weaker??? that's the one certain problem with polytrack that i see coming--horses will get even less work because there's less to worry about injury wise. the horse then moves to a conventional hard track without the requiste concussive work, and bam.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean soft training, racing schedules? Or soft surfaces?

[Tucumcari]

I think I might understand what Ratherrrapid is saying....
Myinterpertation:
Many old school trainers would rather have their young horses turned out in a location where they have to forage and climb hills, etc.... the thinking there is that they develop to be a bit stronger as an individual because they have had need to devlop bone density, tougher feet, etc....Rather than what does occur at many breeding farms, where babies are "hothoused" and pampered and kept only on manicured small enclosures.
Same goes for training... The alternative surfaces are kind, Kinder than many organic surfaces are or ever will be.
So by decreasing the stress during training are we really creating a stronger better horse... will there be "incidents" because of the change from inorganic to organic....
With babies in the spring we might not get the "usual" growing pains shins, fill in ankles, etc but what happens when the "sound" young horse hits a harder surface....
It is something we have seen, though I did think I would see more of it when horses have come from h'wood to run at SA or even GG.
With the new surface they might get longer stronger gallops, but does that really develop the bone density required? BUT many trainers are creatures of habit and their training regime would likely not change a ton. The ones that roll anlong will continue to do so, and the ones that do alot of jogging or hobby horsing will still do the same....
Hollywood is still having a number of breakdowns, Turfway is still having a now increased number of breakdowns.... obviously not the saviour we all hope it to be.
Another note on Poly or holly tracks is (and I don't know this for sure, But a rumour I heard... confirm or deny anyone please) is that A P Indy and Storm Cat both bat at a ridiculously low percentage of winners over an alternate surface... SO would these two very influencial stallions become basically obsolete if we all went alternate surface.... That would be HUGE for the breeding industry...

[ratherrapid]

well, partially tucumcari, and said far better than I. he was also referring to "kinder" training, to which i launched the usual RR objections.

[MidwestTrainer]

"she" I understand what you are saying and actually agree. I know outside the US they are big on jogging on roads to build up bones. Maybe we should be so lucky one day to have the luxury of many different training surfaces in one place ala Japan.

I'm not a fan of training one way or the other, I think you have to do what suits the horse.

Thanks for clarifying your post.

[angelsprite]

I hate to say it, but this sounds a lot like everyone should be careful what they wish for. Usually (not always, but most times) complaining about the surface is the excuse trainers give when they are killing a lot of horses and hurting or killing riders. We are seeing now that polytrack isn't the answer, but the real answer is too hard. The industry just isn't going to clean out the steroids and pain killers, and the trainers who just drill their horses to death, and run them when they are on the verge of breaking down.
I feel sorry for Turfway's owners. They did something they felt was the right thing to do and paid a lot of money for it. Now, they are saying, "This is bad! What can we do?"
Well, you can't clean the drugs out of racing, because it would annoy all the top trainers and vets who count on them to hide their poor horsemanship. Those people have too much money. You don't want to step on their toes. And you can't make a surface that is good enough to compensate for the drugs and poor horsemanship.
I would say, pretty much, we need to get used to the fact that racing is now a slaughter mill for horses and we are going to see more breakdowns, deaths and injuries, of horses and jockeys.
My prayers are with Santos. My hubby suffered a compression fracture of the T-12 a few years back and thank God, he wasn't paralyzed. It is a painful injury. It's torture. And Santos has two of those.

[Tucumcari]

I agree.
Turfway did need to do something. It was hands down the worst surface... worst maintained surface I've ever been over.
The problem is horses are flesh and blood. They are athletes that travel at high speeds. When something goes wrong it goes terribly wrong.
I think more than anything the level of actuall horsemanship needs to be raised. Not everyone kills horses. You don't need to kill to win races... continuing to train over a "kinder" surface with a horse that has a fracture isn't going to help heal the fracture.... it's sheer stupidity, carelessness and thoughtlessness, lack of consience for horse or human life... it pisses me off.