bone density
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mightyhijames
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bone density
do breeders/owners/trainers ever test a young horse for bone density before they start their racing career?
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louis finochio
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I have asked many vets if Tb can be tested for bone density, and they all said there is no way they can be tested.
With all the hi teck breakthroughs of today, it wouldnt surprise me that they will be able to check the bone density in Tb in the future.
With all the hi teck breakthroughs of today, it wouldnt surprise me that they will be able to check the bone density in Tb in the future.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
there has to be a way........ 
...i know the person i imploy as a trainer uses many.. many.. many..long slooooowwwww gallops to build up bone density....and it works. 
...i know the person i imploy as a trainer uses many.. many.. many..long slooooowwwww gallops to build up bone density....and it works. A great man cannot help himself," "He can see things that other men cannot see themselves, and his greatness lies in doing whatever is necessary to make his vision real
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angelsprite
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Mighty,
I have the vet shoot the knees, as most trainers do, but I like to shoot the shins on them if the owner will go for it. A light (shadowy) shin on an ex-ray is not good. By the time a horse's epiphyses have ossified (knees have closed), those shins should show good and white on the scan. Poor bone density is actually quite common in TB babies.
The solution is good feed, a firm track (not concrete, but not deep sand) and careful exercise to build that bone density. There are calcium supplements, but bone density, especially in young horses, is mainly dependent on the amount of exercise. Some cells build bone and some destroy bone. These cells can outstrip one another. With good exercise, the bone building cells will be stimulated to deposit calcium. With no exercise, the bone destroying cells will cause bone density to decrease. Good thread here.
I have the vet shoot the knees, as most trainers do, but I like to shoot the shins on them if the owner will go for it. A light (shadowy) shin on an ex-ray is not good. By the time a horse's epiphyses have ossified (knees have closed), those shins should show good and white on the scan. Poor bone density is actually quite common in TB babies.
The solution is good feed, a firm track (not concrete, but not deep sand) and careful exercise to build that bone density. There are calcium supplements, but bone density, especially in young horses, is mainly dependent on the amount of exercise. Some cells build bone and some destroy bone. These cells can outstrip one another. With good exercise, the bone building cells will be stimulated to deposit calcium. With no exercise, the bone destroying cells will cause bone density to decrease. Good thread here.
angelsprite wrote:Mighty,
I have the vet shoot the knees, as most trainers do, but I like to shoot the shins on them if the owner will go for it. A light (shadowy) shin on an ex-ray is not good. By the time a horse's epiphyses have ossified (knees have closed), those shins should show good and white on the scan. Poor bone density is actually quite common in TB babies.
The solution is good feed, a firm track (not concrete, but not deep sand) and careful exercise to build that bone density. There are calcium supplements, but bone density, especially in young horses, is mainly dependent on the amount of exercise. Some cells build bone and some destroy bone. These cells can outstrip one another. With good exercise, the bone building cells will be stimulated to deposit calcium. With no exercise, the bone destroying cells will cause bone density to decrease. Good thread here.
That offers a lot of support that we shouldn't wait until horses are much older to get them into the swing of training and racing. Some argue that 2 yr olds shouldn't race but I just feel that you'll end up with horses with less durability in their frame, underpinning,etc. but now they're being asked to do the work with the heavier weight that comes with greater maturity. It should help if they do a reasonable amount of exercise with less to carry around. Of course I don't like 2yo in training sale blowouts because they've loaded them up with muscle, which weighs a lot (although a fat 2yo isn't great either), and then train them to run like Hades. Best to get the bones ready to handle things first.
I'd love to know the bone densities of horses as foals and/or yearlings and see exactly what ends up happening to them in terms of injuries to bone especially but really anything sustained. The chances of that are about the same as my winning the lottery but it would be interesting.
"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana"
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louis finochio
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You can oly get out of a Tb thats bred into them. When you double and triple up inbreeding to Northern Dancer---Native Dancer---RAN---Buckpasser---Nearctic---Bold Ruler---Nasrulllah---Turn-to---Nashua, a Tb breeder is breeding for unsoundness, as all these foundation sires descend from the same sire line.
Then when a Tb breeder uses mares that have a prolific amonut of the same sire line crosses the progeny will have weak bone density.
Watch what happens when an outcross sire line on the dams side is added to the mating of those foundation sires above. The bone density becomes stronger and those spindle leg Tb will have stronger bone as a result of the outcross of Np will breed a sounder Tb.
Those fashion breeders may breed a sales topper, but their product will not stand training or racing for any length of time ala Green Monkey.
Then when a Tb breeder uses mares that have a prolific amonut of the same sire line crosses the progeny will have weak bone density.
Watch what happens when an outcross sire line on the dams side is added to the mating of those foundation sires above. The bone density becomes stronger and those spindle leg Tb will have stronger bone as a result of the outcross of Np will breed a sounder Tb.
Those fashion breeders may breed a sales topper, but their product will not stand training or racing for any length of time ala Green Monkey.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
A well-nourished thoroughbred is not likely to develop poor overall bone density, unless through illness or disuse, such as after injury or with prolonged stall rest. Stress fractures and shin splints are from the rapid changes in stress on the growing bones during training. New surfaces, improper shoeing, intensified workouts, and human impatience can not be found on a bone density test.
Rocking H
amanda1 wrote:Louis PLEASE.....
Keep this nonsensical rant where it belongs! We don't want to read it on every thread!
louis can write what ever he likes ...you dont have to read it......PLEASE..dont try to pick and choose what i read..or others for that matter...its still a free country.
A great man cannot help himself," "He can see things that other men cannot see themselves, and his greatness lies in doing whatever is necessary to make his vision real
I thought stress training, after the kness close, to induce shin splints; i.e, stress cracks, not stress fractures, with a subsequent lay off to allow the stress cracks to fill and heal, was the way you built strong bones.
i'm certianly not an expert in this arena but I can tell you from personal experience in high school and college that slow steady runs is not the way to induce stress cracks.
griff
i'm certianly not an expert in this arena but I can tell you from personal experience in high school and college that slow steady runs is not the way to induce stress cracks.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
heres a quote from a University of Vermont PhD
"One big problem with skeletal conditioning is that compensatory changes occur much slower than circulatory, respiratory and muscular conditioning. It takes approximately 60 days of 5d/week riding for the density of a horse’s cannon bones to adapt to more strenuous activity and to carrying the added weight of a rider. Therefore, while our horses may feel fit, the vast majority of us (weekend riders) do not ride enough to cause any significant changes in skeletal fitness."
"One big problem with skeletal conditioning is that compensatory changes occur much slower than circulatory, respiratory and muscular conditioning. It takes approximately 60 days of 5d/week riding for the density of a horse’s cannon bones to adapt to more strenuous activity and to carrying the added weight of a rider. Therefore, while our horses may feel fit, the vast majority of us (weekend riders) do not ride enough to cause any significant changes in skeletal fitness."
Last edited by habitat on Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
reenci wrote:there has to be a way........
Actually, it is graduated, short speed works that build bone density. The gallops build and strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons to support the bone as it remodels.
http://www.valleycreekfarm.com/maryshin.html
Often, trainers will employ long, slow gallops and then gradually pick up speed at the end of the gallop, to introduce a little speed to the horse, before subjecting it to a real speed work. But this can be dangerous, if the horse is not fit. A tired horse is more prone to getting hurt.