Any advice please? Seriously punchy horse! *Updated*
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kimberley mine
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Are you working from the Milnerton training center, or are you up in Randjesfontein?
For the rest of the board, in South Africa, horses are not generally ponied at the tracks as they are in the US. There are a couple of outriders for safety reasons, but otherwise a horse is expected to go to/from the gates on its own. For this reason I think that getting this horse used to a pony is a step back, not a step forward. He won't have that luxury on race day.
Barring any sort of injury or pain, and I second the call for a chiropractor AND a massage therapist, you might need to give him a mini break. By that I don 't mean a vacation, but go through the ground lessons and racetrack introduction process all over again until you find precisely where the trouble starts. Then train through it using whatever tool is best. For instance, if he blows up every time the jock goes up...then the solution is drilling him over and over and over to stand quietly while the jockey, an excercise rider, the feed bag, the stable cat, etc are taken on and off. When he can stand quietly for mounting in all kind of conditions with all kinds of different people, then it's time to move on to the next one. And so on. In the meantime, so long as his ground manners are good, he can be walked in order to maintain some of his fitness.
Since you mentioned that he does get "shy" around other horses, is it possible to work him in company at LOW speeds? First he goes out in a group at a walk, then at a brisk walk (with horses all around), then a trot, then an easy canter?
The only other advice I can think of is to lunge him before working him if possible. You don't have to go fast, just at a controlled walk before he even gets tacked up, but it will give him a chance to get moving, to warm up, and to get his brain focused on his job. That might be something to do with him anyway as you mentioned even before his refusing he would "hot up."
Best of luck and please keep up posted.
For the rest of the board, in South Africa, horses are not generally ponied at the tracks as they are in the US. There are a couple of outriders for safety reasons, but otherwise a horse is expected to go to/from the gates on its own. For this reason I think that getting this horse used to a pony is a step back, not a step forward. He won't have that luxury on race day.
Barring any sort of injury or pain, and I second the call for a chiropractor AND a massage therapist, you might need to give him a mini break. By that I don 't mean a vacation, but go through the ground lessons and racetrack introduction process all over again until you find precisely where the trouble starts. Then train through it using whatever tool is best. For instance, if he blows up every time the jock goes up...then the solution is drilling him over and over and over to stand quietly while the jockey, an excercise rider, the feed bag, the stable cat, etc are taken on and off. When he can stand quietly for mounting in all kind of conditions with all kinds of different people, then it's time to move on to the next one. And so on. In the meantime, so long as his ground manners are good, he can be walked in order to maintain some of his fitness.
Since you mentioned that he does get "shy" around other horses, is it possible to work him in company at LOW speeds? First he goes out in a group at a walk, then at a brisk walk (with horses all around), then a trot, then an easy canter?
The only other advice I can think of is to lunge him before working him if possible. You don't have to go fast, just at a controlled walk before he even gets tacked up, but it will give him a chance to get moving, to warm up, and to get his brain focused on his job. That might be something to do with him anyway as you mentioned even before his refusing he would "hot up."
Best of luck and please keep up posted.
fort_falcon wrote:I suppose i should have mentioned, that once we actually get him onto the track he works really well, doesn't pull or anything, but he does "hang" away from the other horse if you work in pairs....?
Do you take the same path to the track every day (is there only one way)? A filly of mine used to FREAK at the clockers stand at the Belmont Training track. I have no idea why. Funny if it weren't so dangerous. I also had a colt that was oddly aggressive at odd times, and we found out it was the saddle pinching him while he walked, it was fine at higher speed. Changed the saddle and padding, he was perfect. I am not expert, so take this with a grain of salt, just suggesting options.
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fort_falcon
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Dray33 - No, fortunately we have several different options with regards to tracks and routes to work. but they're wearing very thin - seems to me like he's getting clued up pretty quick as to what he's going to do when we go certain ways.
kimberly mine - im based in Durban - at clairwood. the string pulls out together, so he goes to and from track in a group of roughly 13 horses, and they also all warm up together in the trotting rings...it's only when he's being asked to work in a pair that he shies/hangs away from the other horse.
well, thanks for all the advice from EVERYONE! I'm going to see about getting him checked out by the vet, chiro and physio, and try a few different things with him...will update!
kimberly mine - im based in Durban - at clairwood. the string pulls out together, so he goes to and from track in a group of roughly 13 horses, and they also all warm up together in the trotting rings...it's only when he's being asked to work in a pair that he shies/hangs away from the other horse.
well, thanks for all the advice from EVERYONE! I'm going to see about getting him checked out by the vet, chiro and physio, and try a few different things with him...will update!
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
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fort_falcon
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zinn.....definately not! well, not as far as I'm concerned, one thing is I definately don't believe in rushing a horse...as my tag says - "If you rush a horse it will make you wait" and this applies to all horses. Which is also exactly why we don't race juveniles, also, a couple of our horses have been left on the farm and only come into racing as 4 yr olds...this particular horse has been given alot of time, and we have been very careful NOT to rush him (or any of the babies).
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
Good luck.. say, I had a thought.
Is it, then, that he only acts out (rear, spin, etc.) IN the group of 13 or so horses heading to or from the track? If so he may have some "herd dynamics" issues and might be better going along with just one or two from his own stable. The way he apparently stands off a work partner.. well he will need to get over that to race, won't he?
Is it, then, that he only acts out (rear, spin, etc.) IN the group of 13 or so horses heading to or from the track? If so he may have some "herd dynamics" issues and might be better going along with just one or two from his own stable. The way he apparently stands off a work partner.. well he will need to get over that to race, won't he?
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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fort_falcon
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no no....when he's walking to and from track, in the ring or trotting in the warmups he's absolutely ANGELIC...like butter wouldn't melt...it's ONLY whn he's actually going off to work on the tracks..and then it doesn't matter if he's in a group or on his own, he behaves like a monster.
"But i don't want to go among mad people." Said Alice.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
"Oh, you can't help that," said the cat. "We're all mad here."
fort_falcon wrote:no no....when he's walking to and from track, in the ring or trotting in the warmups he's absolutely ANGELIC...like butter wouldn't melt...it's ONLY whn he's actually going off to work on the tracks..and then it doesn't matter if he's in a group or on his own, he behaves like a monster.
Sounds like a rotten habit he's picked up. Don't know what you have in the way of cowboys in the area but I suspect a top hand would staighten him right out in short order. Of course when you put an inferior hand back on him he may resort to his old ways. With some horses it comes down to "to much horse for the rider" or put another way "not enough cowboy and to much horse".
I just think that he has too much talent, which obvious might be damaged too quick.
I would say give hime time, walking trotting and no more allopping as something bothers him too much.
When one is now putting somebody on his back that will win the fight, than I certainly now, the future will be no racehorse for him anymore.
He seems much too smart for tricky games.
So it will go like this, his rider will win the fight but looses the war and all of the crew will loose the war.
I would say give hime time, walking trotting and no more allopping as something bothers him too much.
When one is now putting somebody on his back that will win the fight, than I certainly now, the future will be no racehorse for him anymore.
He seems much too smart for tricky games.
So it will go like this, his rider will win the fight but looses the war and all of the crew will loose the war.
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MidwestTrainer
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I still think he needs a break. Most horses just aren't that "ornery", if they are, they are that way everywhere and all the time. I really think if you could take a couple of days and just walk or jog him on the track with another horse or by himself (if he is better ) he will change.
You cannot "scare" a horse into behaving. There are FEW true "cowboys or horseman" that know how to properly assess the problem and correct it. Too many just get on the horse and start getting after it hard and make the problem worse. You need somebody quiet that can give him a good hard crack when he needs it, but at the same time have the confidence to feel like they are riding a lamb and not get carried away.
We got a horse one time that would start spinning as soon as you went on the track. A couple of "cowboys" had tried to "knock it" out of him and it did nothing. So I got on him at all of 95lbs, and mind you he was a 17H monster, and proceeded to just walk him. The first day he did it when he first came on and I just went with it. When he stopped we kept walking. Eventually(1 week) he was fine as long as you let him walk to the clubhouse turn, then he would gallop like a puppy. For whatever reason he developed this "phobia." He went on to get 3 yr old honors at the track he was racing, before this he eased for maiden $7500 claimers.
Does anybody where you are at have any suggestions or ideas? I am sure there are some very smart people there that might be willing to help or have suggestions.
You cannot "scare" a horse into behaving. There are FEW true "cowboys or horseman" that know how to properly assess the problem and correct it. Too many just get on the horse and start getting after it hard and make the problem worse. You need somebody quiet that can give him a good hard crack when he needs it, but at the same time have the confidence to feel like they are riding a lamb and not get carried away.
We got a horse one time that would start spinning as soon as you went on the track. A couple of "cowboys" had tried to "knock it" out of him and it did nothing. So I got on him at all of 95lbs, and mind you he was a 17H monster, and proceeded to just walk him. The first day he did it when he first came on and I just went with it. When he stopped we kept walking. Eventually(1 week) he was fine as long as you let him walk to the clubhouse turn, then he would gallop like a puppy. For whatever reason he developed this "phobia." He went on to get 3 yr old honors at the track he was racing, before this he eased for maiden $7500 claimers.
Does anybody where you are at have any suggestions or ideas? I am sure there are some very smart people there that might be willing to help or have suggestions.
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kimberley mine
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Hi Fort_Falcon, Clairwood itself is quite pretty but unless you feel like running along the highway your options ARE limited.
He is not moving forward well when asked. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day if he's scared or mean or ornery, he needs to learn to go forward--not up, not back, not into the air--when asked (although the approach might differ for scared/mean/ornery). A good trainer, a patient competent and kind workrider, and some time spent on basic under saddle "rules" should help.
He is not moving forward well when asked. It doesn't really matter at the end of the day if he's scared or mean or ornery, he needs to learn to go forward--not up, not back, not into the air--when asked (although the approach might differ for scared/mean/ornery). A good trainer, a patient competent and kind workrider, and some time spent on basic under saddle "rules" should help.
skeenan wrote:I only have equitation TB experience, but a strong reaction as you're describing, what comes to mind first is back pain (or other strong pain)...
I just read an article in which a saddle horse had explosive reactions under saddle and they thought he was perhaps untrainable. He'd be fine one minute, explosive the next. Come to find out, he had a back issue related to something that happened as a foal. Once they pinpointed the issue & he had some chiropractic work done, he was much better, if I'm remembering the article correctly...
I could be wrong, but if he were my horse that's what I'd look at first... good luck with him, hope you find a solution!
I would agree that it is either the back or the hind end. How does he stand when at rest, in stall or in paddock? Often horses will prop their weight away from the painful area...i.e., if it is hind end, will prop the hind legs in higher ground to put weight forward on front, and reverse that for pain in front. Pain, in saddle area, I would think would cause the horse to constantly change the resting position, or to be fidgety and roll a lot to try to fix the problem.
Do you have any pics you can post?
Timber wrote:Sounds like the 'work' is when he hurts. Get a nuclear scan and find out what is going on.
Since scans are so expensive, they would need to try to figure out where the pain is coming from. Has any one bothered to check for a bean or to see if he is "tender" from his gelding? He might have some uncomfortable scar tissue, BUT I still suspect back, or neck, which if not fixed, will start to wear his legs down.
Something is either bothering him from pain, or bothering him from a "bad" experience. I'd watch his body language while he is trying to be "comfortable"/at rest.
Doesn't it just drive you crazy that these guys can't talk
Have you had him scoped for ulcer's? Many young horses develope them from the stress of training. Have you checked his teeth? Checked his equipment? After ruling out pain causing the fit, if the same rider is riding him every time, I'd change rider's. Someone with quite hand's, knowledge and confidence to help the horse work through it.
There are way's of helping this horse without the "showing them whose boss in the stall, cowboying them" All you'd wind up with is a blown-up horse. Your asking your horse to give his all in a race and you darn sure want him to with a smile on his face.
We often buy horses off the track, 2-4 year's old. The first thing we do, is turn them out and let them be horses for 4-6 month's. Sometimes a year, depending on their age, mental and physical condition. Then we bring them up and start basic training. Preparing them for their second career.
There are way's of helping this horse without the "showing them whose boss in the stall, cowboying them" All you'd wind up with is a blown-up horse. Your asking your horse to give his all in a race and you darn sure want him to with a smile on his face.
We often buy horses off the track, 2-4 year's old. The first thing we do, is turn them out and let them be horses for 4-6 month's. Sometimes a year, depending on their age, mental and physical condition. Then we bring them up and start basic training. Preparing them for their second career.
Laissez les bon temps rouller!