Any advice please? Seriously punchy horse! *Updated*

[horsenuts]

Sounds like the 'work' is when he hurts. Get a nuclear scan and find out what is going on.

Since scans are so expensive, they would need to try to figure out where the pain is coming from. Has any one bothered to check for a bean or to see if he is "tender" from his gelding? He might have some uncomfortable scar tissue, BUT I still suspect back, or neck, which if not fixed, will start to wear his legs down.

Something is either bothering him from pain, or bothering him from a "bad" experience. I'd watch his body language while he is trying to be "comfortable"/at rest.

Doesn't it just drive you crazy that these guys can't talk

There may be something bothering the horse but his behavior needs addressing as well. A top hand would have him "lined out" in short order problem is there may not be cowboy enough where the horse is at to do so.

Top horseman make it look so easy on problem horses... it's truly humbling to watch what they can accomplish in a matter of minutes. There are several Hall of Trainers that are/were top "cowboys" before they went on to full time training careers. Bill Mott among others as he galloped countless horses when he was younger and early on in his training career... and what a hand he was/is. Mesh Tenney is another as he was a heck of a 'cowboy and hand with a horse. These guys and many, many more like them were "horse whispers" long before that became part of the horse business venacular. A top hand can communicate with a horse and have their respect at the same time. It's a treat to watch.

As for the horse being discussed... I wish you luck but don't have any other suggestions other then finding a top rider and go from there.

[fort_falcon]

BenB>>you're absolutely right, the horse does have SPANS of talent, this is what makes it all so frustrating. I mean, we're GOING slowly with him for precisely that reason, i see so many talented horses messed up by other trainers, coz they're pushed to fast etc...

Midwest>>yes, we've tried smacking him and believe me...we DONT smack our horses, "one hard crack" is exactly what I believe in too...when necessary, but all it does to him is make him even worse, he really objects, you can carry the stick, but don't try hitting him...

Kimberly>> you have NO idea how much i miss being up in summerveld. we weren;t in the training centre proper, but used the tracks everyday...okay, so the tracks are SHITE!!! but, we had wonderful outrides available for the more difficult horses, and big paddocks and a very quiet yard, it was marvelous! but at Clairwood, you get the good tracks, so I guess you can't have the best of both eh?

Lei>> thought of ulcers, but he's SUCH a glutton for his food, cleans the bowl and finishes all his teff, lucerne and oathay. (although we've cut back on the latter)...all the horses I've known with ulcers have been non-eaters and tended toward the skinny side....maybe im wrong...?

I observed him closely today, he doesn't rest one hind leg more than he does the other, and he seems pretty even and sound trotting...his work rider is VERY good, and doesn't take his crap, but doesn't beat him up or abuse him in any way (the rider would be fired if he was LUCKY!)

From tomorrow we're going to start working him in a pair with an older, quieter horse - just cantering to begin with - to try to get him over his hanging/shying business...also getting the vet to come and check him out.

Will post a pic of him this weekend.

Thanks again for all the advice....taking it all into account...

[fort_falcon]

and BJ>>>if horses could talk it would make trainers/vets etc across the world the happiest people alive!

[Lei Owen]

Two symptoms of stomach ulcers is attitude and behavioral change. I'd still have him scoped. If nothing but to rule them out.

[BJ]

There may be something bothering the horse but his behavior needs addressing as well.

Behavior is the only way a horse talks to us. One has to try to figure out what he is saying, before you can "address it". A horse, IMO, that is going along great, that suddenly starts acting up, has something NEW and important bothering/affecting him. Especially since he's been gelded.

I've heard trainer stories of every test imaginable taken, with nothing found, only to find out there WAS something they missed.

Dig deeper. There IS something there.

[skeenan]

After ruling out pain causing the fit, if the same rider is riding him every time, I'd change rider's. Someone with quite hand's, knowledge and confidence to help the horse work through it.

This is a good point, too... horses can be totally different depending on who is riding them... sometimes it's a "personality clash" that has nothing to do with the skill of the rider. And if the rider is now anticipating the bad behavior, that will transmit right to him...

Is there anything you can do to change up the routine heading to the track? I don't know the official rules or the track setup, but if you could enter from a different point, have the rider mount in a different area... anything that removes his anticipation of the routine and keeps him guessing, maybe it would help some...

Perhaps it isn't possible, but if you could, that's what I'd try while you're working out a possible pain issue... if he does/does not improve, then you might be closer to determining whether it's physical or behavioral...

[horsenuts]

There may be something bothering the horse but his behavior needs addressing as well.

Behavior is the only way a horse talks to us. One has to try to figure out what he is saying, before you can "address it". A horse, IMO, that is going along great, that suddenly starts acting up, has something NEW and important bothering/affecting him. Especially since he's been gelded.

I've heard trainer stories of every test imaginable taken, with nothing found, only to find out there WAS something they missed.

Dig deeper. There IS something there.

There may be something bothering the horse... but it's no reason not to correct the behaior ASAP. A good trainer/horseman would have the horse "lined out" in short order. I've seen such misbehavior corrected in a matter of minutes with the right rider. Horses are smart and when they know they can get away with something... often times erratic things such as described they will and once the bad habit starts you can set your watch by it.... until corrected.

[BJ]

Horsenuts,

How do you correct a behavior you don't know the cause of, by DISCIPLINE, when it is "pain" or "illness" related?

Every decent horseman I've ever talked to says you only make matters worse by losing a horse's trust.

I've also seen a horse "disciplined" into breaking down, or at best, have its potential deteriorated. A good horseman can TELL the difference between a behavior issue and a physical issue. That's the bottom line, IMO. One who starts forcing a horse to forget about pain, is not a horseman, IMO.

[horsenuts]

Horsenuts,

How do you correct a behavior you don't know the cause of, by DISCIPLINE, when it is "pain" or "illness" related?

Every decent horseman I've ever talked to says you only make matters worse by losing a horse's trust.

I don't buy it. A top rider would have the horse lined out pain or no pain. The horse had obviously been a bit of a problem prior and why he was castrated.

I can only relate my experiences and I have seen many a misbehaving unruly/rotten acting horse turned around in very short order. I have seen numerous horses claimed that the prior stable could not manage very well while under tack. Under the right management however, that same horse "came to his milk" so to speak and usually had a DRAMATIC reversal in form from being ordinary to a "win machine".

A horse that appears to be coming to hand in this manner is Lawyer Ron. Pletcher put draw reigns on him in the morning and looks like he is really coming to hand. He ran a couple weeks ago at GP with Velasquez aboard and was brought from off the pace as opposed to running to hard on the front end as has been his trait throughout most of his career. While Bob Holthus is a very good horsemen I really like what Pletcher is doing with this horse and expect a big year from him barring injury.

Having said that I realize it can often be difficult if not impossible to find a rider with the skills necessary to "line a particular horse out". I just hate to see any horse act up to the extent described pain or no pain. And my best guestimate is that his "pain" is between his ears and simply needs someone that "understands him" and can bring him to his milk in short order.

[BJ]

Horsenuts,

Drawreins are great for controlling a strong horse, that wants to run off...or to help the horse keep its head down, instead of tossing it, and/or keeping its neck and hind end working in balance, in a gallop and/or a jog. But those things are easily differentiated from "pain" or "fear" issues.

If the bit isn't bothering the horse, or even its teeth, and its tongue is properly tied before a work, so it isn't afraid from a possible air problem, and THIS horse was going along fine, but SUDDENLY/overnight started "rearing", "ducking" and I forget the other thing...these all seem to be "symptoms" of trying to get away from pain, or something that seriously frightens the horse.

In my more naive days...before I turned total cynic...I had a filly that suddenly started to rear all the time too. It was explained away as "hot" and "just feeling her oats", and "just being a racehorse". Just prior to that, she had started to get "nasty" and fidgety in her stall, not wanting the attention she used to soak up.

I noticed she was ever so slightly off in her reach, in the walking ring, after a work. I was promptly told I was "seeing things". THEN, she turned up lame a few days later (for no "apparent reason") and a nuclear scan turned up the beginnings of a tibia fracture. To quote the report, "significant reuptake and bone remodeling" We also were very careful to take it slow with her, before that. However, we couldn't be there all 7 days of the week, so I have no idea what she did when I wasn't there. But I do know, you never had to show her something more than once and she had a smooth, fluid action that was beautiful to watch.

We gave her more time to heal (5.5 months) than the recommended 4 months, just to be sure. But, after that, she was never the same. So, MY experience has taught me to be absolutely adamant that when a horse starts SUDDENLY misbehaving, when they had it together before...there is something hurting and one needs to STOP and figure it out, before doing anything else. The tougher they are, the less likely they are to "show pain", except in their "attitude", IMO. Especially if someone is beating on them, or using things to "cover up" or distract what they are trying to tell you.

BTW, her handlers "disciplined" her for her bad behavior. She didn't rear again...she just went lame from being forced to work through her pain.

And even if there isn't anything "physical" bothering the horse. Sometimes, stopping on the horse, to let it clear its head..."reboot" its brain... is easier and less time consuming than trying to go on with a horse that isn't happy.

BTW...if "trot" is the same as a "jog", then and that is when the horse has problems, then that IS a sign of a hind end or back problem. It is harder on a horse to jog than to gallop. And often a horse is lame at the jog or walk, but the momentum of higher speeds make the horse "appear" okay. I've seen dead lame horses look "almost okay", when allowed to pick up a little momentum.

[Tairaterces]

There may be something bothering the horse but his behavior needs addressing as well.

Behavior is the only way a horse talks to us. One has to try to figure out what he is saying, before you can "address it". A horse, IMO, that is going along great, that suddenly starts acting up, has something NEW and important bothering/affecting him. Especially since he's been gelded.

I've heard trainer stories of every test imaginable taken, with nothing found, only to find out there WAS something they missed.

Dig deeper. There IS something there.

Just a thought . . . .are you sure BOTH testicles were removed?

[Crystal]

Just a thought . . . .are you sure BOTH testicles were removed?

Thats A Good Thought.. but ok, we should just say it. So horses just dont like their jobs! They dont know they are Thoroughbred.. like they could just pick what they wanted to do in life?

But I do agree, even though it may not be a happy option for the owners, it could save time, money & energy if the horse got turned out..even for a season. Just to grow Mentally.

Second, pain.. have a vet/chiroprator/massage therapist (whatever) come out.. look at teeth, look for ulcers, and tight back muscles, compressed vertebre. The whole darn horse.. Rule out as much as you can. OH and have your vet pull some bloodwork and run a blood chemistry analysis to rule out under lined infections, viruses, check kidney functions etc..

Third, Is he bored?? Is their a companion animal in your barn?? Maybe he just needs a friend.. cat, goat, chicken..

Hope it can help.
Crystal

[Lei Owen]

Horsenuts,

How do you correct a behavior you don't know the cause of, by DISCIPLINE, when it is "pain" or "illness" related?

Every decent horseman I've ever talked to says you only make matters worse by losing a horse's trust.

I don't buy it. A top rider would have the horse lined out pain or no pain. The horse had obviously been a bit of a problem prior and why he was castrated.

I can only relate my experiences and I have seen many a misbehaving unruly/rotten acting horse turned around in very short order. I have seen numerous horses claimed that the prior stable could not manage very well while under tack. Under the right management however, that same horse "came to his milk" so to speak and usually had a DRAMATIC reversal in form from being ordinary to a "win machine".

A horse that appears to be coming to hand in this manner is Lawyer Ron. Pletcher put draw reigns on him in the morning and looks like he is really coming to hand. He ran a couple weeks ago at GP with Velasquez aboard and was brought from off the pace as opposed to running to hard on the front end as has been his trait throughout most of his career. While Bob Holthus is a very good horsemen I really like what Pletcher is doing with this horse and expect a big year from him barring injury.

Having said that I realize it can often be difficult if not impossible to find a rider with the skills necessary to "line a particular horse out". I just hate to see any horse act up to the extent described pain or no pain. And my best guestimate is that his "pain" is between his ears and simply needs someone that "understands him" and can bring him to his milk in short order.

I'll bet you think sacking out a horse or laying them down and tarping is a perfectly good way to "Line out a horse".

Please read Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt's book's.

Until horses start speaking or we learn to read their mind's, the only way they have of telling us that thing's just aren't right is to act out.

[horsenuts]

Horsenuts,

How do you correct a behavior you don't know the cause of, by DISCIPLINE, when it is "pain" or "illness" related?

Every decent horseman I've ever talked to says you only make matters worse by losing a horse's trust.

I don't buy it. A top rider would have the horse lined out pain or no pain. The horse had obviously been a bit of a problem prior and why he was castrated.

I can only relate my experiences and I have seen many a misbehaving unruly/rotten acting horse turned around in very short order. I have seen numerous horses claimed that the prior stable could not manage very well while under tack. Under the right management however, that same horse "came to his milk" so to speak and usually had a DRAMATIC reversal in form from being ordinary to a "win machine".

A horse that appears to be coming to hand in this manner is Lawyer Ron. Pletcher put draw reigns on him in the morning and looks like he is really coming to hand. He ran a couple weeks ago at GP with Velasquez aboard and was brought from off the pace as opposed to running to hard on the front end as has been his trait throughout most of his career. While Bob Holthus is a very good horsemen I really like what Pletcher is doing with this horse and expect a big year from him barring injury.

Having said that I realize it can often be difficult if not impossible to find a rider with the skills necessary to "line a particular horse out". I just hate to see any horse act up to the extent described pain or no pain. And my best guestimate is that his "pain" is between his ears and simply needs someone that "understands him" and can bring him to his milk in short order.

I'll bet you think sacking out a horse or laying them down and tarping is a perfectly good way to "Line out a horse".

Please read Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt's book's.

Until horses start speaking or we learn to read their mind's, the only way they have of telling us that thing's just aren't right is to act out.

I highly doubt you'd have to "tarp" this horse. I can think of many top hands that wouldn't have much problem straightening this horse out. They make the worst of horses appear like lambs... that is until someone else gets on them.

How good are they?... as good as Steve Irwin was with a 15 foot croc. While the average man would get killed Steve enjoyed the ride the same way a top hand can quickly "iron out" a bad, bad actor smiling all the while throughout the "correction process" it's truly magical to watch and humbling for anyone that's rode. One top cowboy I had the pleasure to work with said when I asked, "how do you do that" he just replied with a grin and said "you just have to weather the storm and once that's done the rest is easy". Problem is very, very few can "weather such a storm". The great ones have an innate ability that can't be taught... but it is something to behold.

[BJ]

Until horses start speaking or we learn to read their mind's, the only way they have of telling us that thing's just aren't right is to act out.

I highly doubt you'd have to "tarp" this horse. I can think of many top hands that wouldn't have much problem straightening this horse out. They make the worst of horses appear like lambs... that is until someone else gets on them.

How good are they?... as good as Steve Irwin was with a 15 foot croc.

A "top hand", by my definition, is one that can look at a horse, in all phases of its day, in training, in the stall, first steps out of the stall, etc., and can just KNOW something is off, BEFORE the horse makes a major change in his behavior. Not one that specializes in wrestling the "voice" and "spirit" out of a horse and still doesn't know that horse was hurting, before it really breaks down.

Too many trainers and barn hands only know how to call a vet when a horse is obviously lame or sick. Some don't even know that.