Proposition: CITATION was THE best

[Rokeby Forever]

You should have stolen her AMEX card. LOL!

Michael, I heard this but don't know for fact:

Ellsworth sold The Scoundrel, and about a week later, the horse bowed. I heard he knew the horse had a bad tendon and sold him more as a racing than breeding prospect, and wouldn't take the horse back when it did bow. I think The Scoundrel sold for something like $500,000.

Is this story true?

[CA Michael]

I think that's essentially true, except the length of time The Scoundrel was raced by new owner KJELL QVALE included two important races--the Kentucky Derby (3rd) and Preakness (2nd to Northern Dancer). He bowed and was returned to CA where he went to stud in 1965.

Qvale has spent millions in the last 40 years to get as good a horse as The Scoundrel, if only for two races. He did own Silky Sullivan for a stint in his stud career, and raced the hard knocking SILVEYVILLE and VARIETY ROAD, but nothing good enough to place in the classics.

[Rokeby Forever]

Didn't Headley wind up training for Qvale?

[CA Michael]

Qvale's first stakes winner, TRONDHEIM, was trained by Bruce. They've been on again, off again for years. Im sure QVALE isn't the easiest man in the world to train for.

[Rokeby Forever]

Thanks, Michael.

Do you know why Swaps was moved to Darby Dan? Why didn't he stay on Ellsworth's farm?

[Patuxet]

Do you know why Swaps was moved to Darby Dan? Why didn't he stay on Ellsworth's farm?

As I remember it when John W. Galbreath was creating his stud called Darby Dan he leased Sea Bird and Ribot and purchased Swaps outright. Later he also arranged to purchased Ribot.

Speaking of CA stud farms, does anyone remember where Pampered King stood?

[Rokeby Forever]

Maybe Michael knows, but I have another question that's a little off the track.

Talking about California stallions that move, many have had success, but very few have had success coming from somewhere else and moving to California. Why was Pia Star able to be so successful in California? Was it that Olympia blood worked well with the pool of mares around at that time?

Pia Star was a fast son-of-a-gun, but he was able to stretch out to win the Brooklyn Handicap. So, was it his speed that made him successful, or his ability to carry it 1 1/4 mile?

[CA Michael]

Hey Rokeby,

Galbreath bought a half interest in Swaps for $1 million before he went to stud. Ellsworth used this money to purchase dozens of mares and a few stallions from the Aga Khan--for the most part, money down the drain. These mares included the dam of the great PETITE ETOILE, but many of them seemed to have reproduction problems and Ellsworth got precious little back for his million bucks. At the same time he also bought at auction *DJENNE, in foal to Relic, who of course was carrying OLDEN TIMES.

Swaps stood his first year at stud, 1957, at Ellsworth's ranch in California. No doubt after visiting the place---which was far from a Kentucky showplace--Galbreath ponied up another million to buy the other half.

PAMPERED KING stood at Alperson Ranch in Colton, CA, in the late 60's-early 70's. Californians then, as now, didn't appreciate a long winded turf sire, in spite of his good success. Im not sure if he remained here until death, but he certainly was of little real or commercial impact.

PIA STAR--who's to say why he did well here other than the obvious-- a speed horse who could go 10 furlongs. Sires like him, such as Fleet Nasrullah--usually fire here. Olympia blood had worked well in CA before--Lucky Mel for example--and Pia Star stood at a very respected place in Ridgeley Farm. I believe he was syndicated which improved the mare pool, too. He came to California about the time his previous farm, Danada Farm, was downsizing, and our stallion ranks were pretty thin.

There were lots of fast horses in CA, but not a lot of them had the ability to carry it two turns. Pia Star could do that, was bred to do that, and passed that along. His breeding crossed well with a lot of CA mares, too. I don't recall him being a very attractive horse, and he might have had a temperament issue--not sure about that, though.

[Rokeby Forever]

I guess that's why the Vellels have done so well with In Excess in California - speed that can run 10 furlongs. Which makes me wonder why Indian Charlie is standing at Airdrie instead of in California. Indian Charlie offspring don't sell that well and don't stay sound all that long, but he always seemed perfect to me for the Cal Bred program.

I have to think that Brother Derek has a bright future if he stands in California in 2008 - speed that could carry 9 furlongs (maybe 10 under the right circumstances) and Benchmark isn't a kid any more...I'd think Brother Derek could step right in as the heir apparent. Plus, with the label of being a "California horse," I don't think any other state would really welcome him as a sire.

[CA Michael]

In Excess really is the type of stallion most people want to breed to. If it weren't for his light bone, and the tendency of his foals to inherit it, he would be almost perfect. Although his get are primarily known for their precocity, In Excess himself was a late developer. Whether this was due to early leg problems, I don't know because he was in Europe. If you look at his damside, you'll see a plethora of high speed, precocity and unsoundness---VILMORIN, SING SING and *TUDOR MINSTREL. It's my opinion that In Excess's strength as a 2yo sire, and his weakness as far as legs go, is rooted in these lines.

When Indian Charlie retired there was talk of keeping him in California, but with Pegram tied into In Excess it didn't make much sense. I think he's done a great job in Kentucky--starting at $5,000 and now at $40,000 (?). Had In Excess not been syndicated soon after Indian Charlie's success no doubt he would have joined him in the bluegrass.

Brother Derek is owned by a Canadian man, but I don't know where he plans to stand him when he's retired. Probably depends if he gets into the game again this fall. He wasn't as sensational as Indian Charlie, but he's somewhat more durable, so he might end up there. The California breeding market is not exactly where high priced stallions want to be right now--the yearling market is in deep-freeze, the racetracks are facing an uphill battle, and our trust fund baby 'leaders' have failed to adequately respond.

Unless and until a sea-change is made in California, big name new stallions won't happen.

[Rokeby Forever]

I think the In Excess/Indian Charlie sire relationship is pretty much like Bertrando/Officer. I think the Taylors are now standing Officer at around $40,000...how come Bertrando never got a welcome to stand in Kentucky?

I would think that Roar would do pretty well in California, especially at the $7,500 level. His only real competition at that price is Memo. You're right - California ia a mess and not many guys want any part of the place. I was thinking that Da Stoops might do well, but they opted to stand him in Ocala (making no sense at all to me - I don't recall him ever racing in Florida).

The NY Bred program, despite NYRA's complete incompetence, mismanagement, and ongoing lawsuits, has been flourishing. NY doesn't have a "big sire" (I think Freud at $10,000 the most expensive), but the rules about registering a foal as a NY Bred are so lax, just about any horse can qualify - Funny Cide being just one of a million examples to cite - which is why NY doesn't have a $25,000+ sire. Does a foal need to be born in CA and by a sire standing in CA to qualify for CA Bred registration?

[CA Michael]

Kentuckians look down their noses at California bloodstock. That's the long and short of it. They would much prefer a scantily raced Storm Cat son to a solid horse of Brother Derek's caliber. Even Eclipse Award winners like Bertrando aren't very fashionable there for the simple reason that he was a "Cal-bred." This stigma isn't limited to Cal-breds, of course; anything bred outside a 20 mile radius of New Circle Road is considered Ill-bred", i.e. poorly bred. Bertrando's sire, Breeders Cup winner SKYWALKER (In Reality) was hotter than fire when he stood in California, but when returned to Kentucky was shunned for his out-of-state hiatus.

Roar is a very nice stallion. I've often said that Rancho San Miguel is one of the best managed farms in CA. When that horse enocuntered a serious fertility problem a few years back, the manager clearly informed potential customers about it. Many other farms here wouldn't have been as up front. While Roar has been very successful as a sire in Argentina (shuttle), he's only had one graded U.S. stakes winner. And that was conceived while he stood at Lane's End Farm. Farish dumped COMIC STRIP on California a few years back and breeders are still trying to figure out a way to make sense of what he's all about. I am very skeptical about breeding to any stallion which has been cast off by a strong stallion station.

In better sale days, DA STOOPS may have worked in California, but we already have comparable stallions which can't fill their books. That horse is a natural for Florida, even though he didn't race there. So long as he can pop out those 2yo's capable of working in 10 seconds, that's all they want.

The Cal-bred program was liberalized sometime in the 80's. Now a mare can conceive out of state, and as long as she foals in California and is bred back the same year to a CA horse, that foal can be registered as Cal-bred. Theoretically, this change has improved the mare pool, but it seems to me that a lot of our better mares are moving in the other direction nowadays.

[Rokeby Forever]

Maybe Officer can change that trend. He's been very well received, but with SO MANY speed influences in his family, why wouldn't Kentucky want him?

Speaking of horses like Da Stoops, I meant to ask you, Michael - do you remember seeing Sledge race? And if so, how would you rank him among the best CA bred sprinters of all time? I believe he defeated Native Diver on several occasions, and yet, I can't find much information about him. Any lasting impressions about him?

[CA Michael]

Wow, you go back some, too Rokeby! I haven't thought about Sledge for a long time.

He was owned by Max and Sidney Factor (cosmetics people) who raced under Sledge Stable. They claimed him as a young horse and won all kinds of races with him until he was age 10 or more!!! Anyone who knew Sledge will tell you two things: 1) he stood 17.2 hands--a giant of an animal with a head to match; and 2) he LOVED the Pomona racetrack. He won from 5 1/2 furlongs to 10 furlongs there, sometimes within the space of a few days of each other! You'd think a big, long striding gawky horse would float wide every time, but Sledge had a way of hugging the rail then swinging wide on the final turn. That's when the track was just 4 furlongs, too!

When you mentioned that he had beaten Native Diver a couple times I wasn't sure I agreed, but after looking at the Diver's PP's, I see you are correct. To be fair, they were races where the Diver didn't run a step (as he was known to do on occasion when the situation suited him). Nevertheless, Sledge beat him and a lot of other good horses too.

He deserves to have a small stakes race named after him. The SLEDGE STAKES????

[geowarrior]

Now Da Stoops is one of the very few stallions at stud that I actually saw race live at Del Mar. He was very disappointing, already past his best after relatively few races and on that day he was beaten by (I think) Red Army Nation in a very small field. I wouldn't breed to him if my life depended on it. People on this thread have seen all these great horses and what have I seen? Da Stoops!