How Good Is He?

General racing discussion.

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Sam
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Postby Sam » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:13 pm

Ill-bred wrote:
Toccet02 wrote:One would think it was time to nationally standardize the medication rules . . . .

It would certainly make sense.

We can't even get the individual fifedoms to accept and recognize a single national license... standardizing the med rules is a pipe dream.

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geowarrior
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Postby geowarrior » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:18 pm

Thanks people, it was the PP's that were confusing to me, because I see the B on almost all horses in Ca but haven't seen it in other states. Am I to conclude that most horses everywhere have actually had bute fairly close to the race? Or am I missing some sublety in the discussion?

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Postby Ill-bred » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:51 pm

geowarrior wrote:Thanks people, it was the PP's that were confusing to me, because I see the B on almost all horses in Ca but haven't seen it in other states. Am I to conclude that most horses everywhere have actually had bute fairly close to the race? Or am I missing some sublety in the discussion?


I did a little looking around, and it appears there is a 24-hour ban with a threshold of 5mcg/ml in most states (except New York, which is more strict).

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Postby Roguelet » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:18 pm

Indiana allows Bute if it's 24 hours out, and lasix on race day... nothing else.
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Postby KAL » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:58 pm

Sysonby, congrats... you win the prize being the worst mind reader in history. Or, perhaps you are simply too guilt ridden or conspiracy craving to actually read something thoroughly.

You could not be more wrong in your assumption. Granted, perhaps when reading all the previous posts in this thread, prior to mine, you might be able to make a gigantic leap to your assumption. Granted, I did nothing to dissuade the talk of Lava Man having additives, but neither did I suggest he did. Upon rereading my own post, perhaps reciting the adage about the surface and below surface was what led to your assumption, however that was a statement about California in general. Perhaps it was the last paragraph where I said it would be interesting to see how Lava Man would respond to racing on turf elsewhere.

Now as for back pedaling... if I wrote something which was misleading, I'll try to clarify. I am not one to back pedal. I am one to admit when I am wrong. Perhaps I should clarify my thoughts in the initial post further... just for you. I did use the exact terms policies and enforcement.

California has a problem with its policies and enforcement of said policies. On this point, I'll even drop the "might". This has been going on for quite some time and probably reached its pinnacle a couple years ago when horsemen actually had finally had enough. This is no secret. You yourself elequently provided fantastic support why this has been happening over the last few years. Prior, it was probably due to a rather disinterested ruling body and a relatively tight-knit backside.

Kentucky has had similiar problems, perhaps worse. Certainly, at times, more laughable.

Dutrow has had positives and has been fighting positives on the east coast. The combination of prior posts suggesting Lava Man was possibly on something, adding what is known about the policies and enforcement in Cali, then adding Dutrows name just struck me as funny. It was kinda' like someone telling me the former football star, Ricky Williams, was going to the Bahama's to finish his college degree.

In and of itself, I probably should not have made that connection because it is inflammatory towards Dutrow... and, in an effort to make amends, I do give him credit for taking on the challenge of shipping west.

However, if you, dear Sysonby, wish to hold to your assumptions and accusations, go ahead, I'll try no further to stop you. While you are at it, you can blame me for the cancellation of races in NoCal due to lack of interest, errr... I mean reduced fields, you can blame me for small fields throughout the state, you can blame me for the reduced attendance, and you can blame me for the rather dismal sales results which have plaqued the state over the last couple years. You can also blame me for the positives found in the top barns, both reported and not reported. You can blame me for the need for special detention barns (which was a step in the right direction... a single step, with more needed). I am positive I am responsible... in some way. Obviously these things have nothing to do with the policies and enforcement, or at least the perception concerning the policies and enforcent, and those responsible for both. Nope... all is well in California, no problems, no concerns... it is all KAL's fault for insinuating that we might have problems.

Oh... on another note... I actually root for Lava Man. You see, dear Sysonby, he is a stable mate of a horse we bred and, at one time, had high hopes.

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Tucumcari
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Postby Tucumcari » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:44 pm

KAL wrote:Sysonby, I clearly said Cali may be lax in their policies and enforcement. You provided a significant factor in why this may be more than a perception. So, in essence, you answered your own question. Labs can only provide info, it is how this info is handled and acted upon which leads to results.

I think if you reread my post you will also see that I took a backhanded swipe at KY and their policies and enforcement. Besides, my initial point had more to do with the irony of the Dutrow statement than anything to do with Lava Man.

As for Lava Man... who knows? As I said, it will be interesting to see how he progresses on the grass and how he does on grass surfaces elsewhere.


KAL,
I definitely agree with your statement regarding enforcement. In some situations over the last few years there have been a few situations where the people involved were also closely involved with officials on some level, and pehaps as a result of their friendships, famillial and business relationships things were allowed to slide... I think the "racetrack" is the same every where, though. And often times it's not what you know but who you know, and thus people will turn a blind eye in some circumstances.
Does LM get meds that no one else does... depends on who uses the same veterinary practice as O Neil... vets aren't that inventive... And if they were giving something that turned this former claimer into a dominant force, they would certainly use it on others.... Is LM getting a milkshake? Who knows.. If he is, he's not shown a bad test in the public eye... But lets say he did get a bi carb overage, what would the CHRB have to gain from enforcing it as opposed to what they gain by not enforcing it. It would cost California racing greatly in attendance and handle if LM suddenly had this sort of chink in his armour.
The horse is a good horse in California. He proves time after time he (for whatever reason) that he doesn't want to travel. I don't think that medication rules in the US are the cause for his not shipping well. Yes if he were to run in Dubai or Japan or Europe, then there would be cause for blaming the medication rules, but it is, in my mind, ludicris to say that he is successful in California, and he can't be in Kentucky because the medication rules are different.... thay aren't that different, infact KY is more lax. One can use more medication(I'm not talking bute or lasix) closer to race day in KY than most other racing jurisdictions. I have had the pleasure of training in both CA and KY, I do speak from experience.
And while still on the topic of LAva, He has yet to prove that he can run and dominate on an alternative surface. Can he? Maybe. But in California we are also starting a new era of track sufaces that might well throw some horses for a loop. And yes it is possible to train well over it and then run poorly over the same surface trained over... So there are some questions remaining for LM. Maybe he will go down in California history as a super horse on ANY surface, but that has yet t be proven.
Dutrow, O Neil, Mullins, Amos, and so many more, push the envelope medically and physically... they need to be held accountable for it, period.
Last edited by Tucumcari on Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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geowarrior
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Postby geowarrior » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:50 pm

Tucumcari, I'd be interested as to whether you have alternative theories about why Lava Man hasn't performed outside Ca. Do you think it's climate related, or does he have a sense of 'home', or is there some other factor at play?

I'm not sure I buy the drug theory, simply because if that were the reason, you ought to see it reflected in other shipping horses, at least to some extent.

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Tucumcari
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Postby Tucumcari » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:11 pm

I don't really have a theory on the why....He can ship race day accross town. He can ship and train at Del Mar and be successful.
But it seems once they put him on a plane he doesn't come out to play.
Pre Breeder's Cup you could have said they need to ship early and let him settle and train and get comfortable... they did those things (sort of.... ). Only thing that really bugged me is that if the horse has shown he doesn't want to ship then why ship to Keenland then take the short trip to Churchill? It would seem that the less travel the better. Then there was the unfortunate situation with the plane before the even got out of California... So maybe that was more than he wants to take. I don't know the horse on a day to day basis, but I would maybe say shipping in a day before or the night before might be the way to go. Fly in, hang an electrolyte/caco jug on him, jog him the morning of the race and see if that works... They have tried and tried... I personally don't believe that shipping and running on grass is going to change the outcome. He seems to like California, for whatever reason. So stay home. Set some records that no one will break for years and years. No shame in that!
You could say that he "needs one" in a new location before he is going to be successful there... but that doesn't happen as he never gets the opportunity to run twice in a row in any other jurisdiction than California. I found that California horses either need a race or need a solid string of works when shipping to eastern surfaces... They are completely different. We are hard and fast and they are deep and not as fast. Maybe he just needs one over the more tiring eastern surfaces...who knows... maybe he just likes to be at home...

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geowarrior
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Postby geowarrior » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:22 pm

Nice analysis, Tucumcari, thanks.

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Tucumcari
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Postby Tucumcari » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Thanks. 8)

Sam
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Postby Sam » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:55 pm

You know.. there might be a simpler explination... maybe he just doesn't like to fly?

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Tucumcari
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Postby Tucumcari » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:56 pm

I agree.

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Postby Ill-bred » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:50 pm

But if it was just the flying that causes him problems, couldn't they bring him early and let him get adjusted?

BTW, he did go to Japan, and he raced miserably against horses he should be very competitive with based on his Cal form.

We'll get to see him ship again soon. Stay tuned...

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Postby Sam » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:04 pm

Ill-bred wrote:But if it was just the flying that causes him problems, couldn't they bring him early and let him get adjusted?

That's what I was thinking, but I was thinking more of trucking him out to where ever instead of flying. I know that would be a pain in the ass and there's more that can go wrong with a van ride than a plane, but if it's the only way to get a good performance out of him, maybe that's what they have to do.

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Postby Rokeby Forever » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:11 pm

Sam wrote: "You know.. there might be a simpler explaination... maybe he just doesn't like to fly?"

If that's true, how come he runs well after he flies home?
What synthetics are to California racing:
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