Stormello

[Rokeby Forever]

RatherRapid...while you make some good points, none of us are "Monday Morning Quarterbacking." To fly back to Florida simply to "avenge" a loss (as FOS wrote) is insane. Did Mr Currin put the horse "first" with the second trip back to Florida?

Did Stormello bleed or injure himself? A week later, there's been no report of either. Why make any excuses for Stormello other than he's pooped?

[MidwestTrainer]

what would we all be posting had stormello won the florida derby? simple to crucify currin after the horse lost, but there were several other horses in there that failed to perform. wonder if anybody caught the recent long article on currin--i forgot were. currin is an interesting guy and anything but an idiot. they are shipping horses all over the country this weekend. is this shipping hurting the shippers, or, is it preparing them to travel?

Just because Currin "could have" stayed in CA hardly makes it all that questionable to ship his horse to a different locale. seems as if Hard Spun recently did similar.

The way Stormello faded in Fl. Derby, i'd conclude the travel had nothing to do with it. more likely bleeding or lack of fitness for the distance due to training or possibly an injury during the race. also a questionable ride. stormello did several spurts before the stretch run that may have used him up including blitzing out of the gate instead of running out evenly. 5f works in :59 are nice provided you also do the rest of the stuff. now, if Currin would just publish how he trains.... and, i'm offering a small reward for anyone willing to disclose Pletcher's training.

Pletcher -

Very standard training with little to no variation from horse to horse, at least when I was there. Go on the track, back to the wire, jog the right way to the 1/4, open gallop 1.5 miles. They jog when coming back from a work or race.

[Rokeby Forever]

Midwest - I guess Angel Cordero has less of a memory for instructions than he used to have. LOL!

[ratherrapid]

none of us are "Monday Morning Quarterbacking."

Weeeeellll...

i was only speculating. glad to hear everybody's comments and opinions on Stormello! I wanted to add, given Currin's background--and for anyone unfamiliar, he was a very successful business man, apparently bright guy, who decided 20 yrs ago he'd rather train horses--that's the way I understand it--personally I hesitate to judge too quickly a trainer with this background. Trainers that know what they're doing can sit back and smile at criticism such as we're hearing. Of course, it's horses, which makes it more dicey.

To "avenge" a loss might be idiotic in one sense, maybe "competitive" in another. Was currinsaying that if you want to win the derby meet it head on instead of dodging? seems he passed what looked like then an easy spot at Santa Anita in favor of the tougher Florida Derby. + earlier time gives him a chance to get in another race, which is what I hope he decides.

I've never flown a horse, but, i've seen them time and time again completely unruffled by a 5-6 hr trip in a cramped stock trailer. We get there, disembark, relieve themselves, we do our breezes and go home. no problem. I'm always surprised at how energetic they are on the track after this sort of trip.

On a plane they have a complete stall, and other than the occasional noise and swaying, what difference than if he's standing in a stall at Santa Anita--speculation.

Agreed on one thing--were the heck are our racing reporters? I learn more on this forum about what's going on than the Blood horse to TTimes.

[ratherrapid]

midwest--txs on pletcher. sounds like you use to work for him???
im taking ur phrase open gallop to mean 16-18 sec/f? also wondering about the frequency of Pletcher's gallops. I'm puzzled though. Is what you're seeing from these Pletcher horses resulting from what Pletcher did when you were there or has Pletcher turned a new leaf?

I'm finding it puzzling to see Scat Daddy off of 1.5 mile open galloping and a couple of 1:02 works show this kind of fitness. and, i'd say the same for almost every pletcher horse ive seen of late. they all run hard gate to wire.

[Rokeby Forever]

RatherRapid...A new leaf? Tell that to Ravel. LOL!

How many 4 year olds are in Pletcher's barn that he got as two year olds? Are all the 70+ two year olds he gets every year turned into stallions/broodmares after their three year old season? Or, as you've suggested, he's suddenly found religion and changed his ways after winning three Eclipse Awards doing what his owners pretty much wanted?

[ratherrapid]

more sign of the decline of civilization that i'm posting here defending Todd Pletcher. but, if you have eyes Rokeby what do you think of Pletcher's horses THIS year? I thought Shug McGaughey might take a lesson from Pletcher since they discovered Ravel's injury before he became another Pine Island. Lukas injured horses they said. When you have a lot of horses you injure more. depends. if you have some stats to back up these vile accusations against my favorite (for the time being until I can really figure out what's going on) trainer, I'd be interested.

[Rokeby Forever]

Do I need any more "stats" than Union City in the KY Derby? Tank's Prospect in the Belmont Stakes? Lady's Secret at Saratoga? What was asked of Grand Canyon as a 2 year old? His own horse Houston?

If I'm supposed to notice marked improvement with Pletcher's 3 year olds "THIS" year, I guess someone forgot to tell Cotton Blossom. LOL!

Shug should learn from Pletcher? How many Shug babies break down before they make it to the races? How many are beautifully managed? OK, Pletcher has 5 times as many horses all over the place and, by numbers, figures to have 5 times as many injured horses. But why does he have 20 times more injured horses? If he starts out with 100 two year olds every year, how come by March, we hear of only 8 or 9? How many are in the dumper before January? I don't have stats on how many actually broke down, but how many are actually still around? Maybe because so many are by the wayside, he's had to rethink bringing a 3 year old along. Anything would beat what he did with Keyed Entry, don't you think?

Pine Island was a crooked filly, and not highly thought of - that's why she started her career on the turf at Gulfstream Park. It's a tribute to Shug that he developed her into what she became, and believe me - if ANYTHING was wrong with Pine Island, she would have not raced in the BC Distaff (I won't ask the same of Fleet Indian). I can't say the same about bringing Oonagh MacCool back for one race this year.

[geowarrior]

Ratherrapid, in this case your text is too rapid for me. Who is your favorite trainer? Pletcher?

[FOS]

hi ratherrapid

...currin is an interesting guy and anything but an idiot.

Hmmm...if you took a poll, and those were the choices...I'm not so sure how the majority might vote.

The way Stormello faded in Fl. Derby, i'd conclude the travel had nothing to do with it. more likely bleeding or lack of fitness for the distance due to training or possibly an injury during the race.

Currin himself apparently disagrees with your conclusion. You might want to read the following...it's the complete commentary, re Stormello, from brisnet.com (bloodstock research) April 6, 2007. It's from the column titled In brief (I've bolded the portion re flying) .

In brief

Trainer Bill Currin said he is training Hollywood Futurity (G1) winner STORMELLO (Stormy Atlantic) "to run in the Kentucky Derby (G1)" and that Kent Desormeaux is committed to ride the speedy chestnut. The California-based Stormello finished second by a nose to Scat Daddy (Johannesburg) in the Fountain of Youth S. (G2) and fourth in the Florida Derby (G1) on March 31 at Gulfstream Park. Currin said the colt returned to Hollywood Park on Tuesday. "I've tried to jog him, but he's so strong, I had to gallop him," Currin said. "I think (Stormello) got more tired flying than he did running. On the trips from California to Florida, he probably spent 40 hours on the planes, and I know I got jet lag. I think horses do, too."...

If Currin is "anything but an idiot" (your words), hopefully he has learned something recently. Maybe he'll now focus a whole lot more on making decisions that might best (or at least better) enhance the super-star colt's chances to succeed rather than not.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[ratherrapid]

well, there you have it. i'm dead wrong as usual. the first 3/4 of Stormello's race seemed to go ok, then quite suddenly jet lag clicked in.

[ratherrapid]

geo--as to Pletcher--i discovered the horse racing internet about 6 months ago. before that i never followed anybody else's horses. so, my info is recent. 6 months ago I might have done a long post about Pletcher as an imbecile Lukas disciple who injures horses. Over the last 6 months I've gained a grudging respect. That's why i asked Rokeby whether he has eyes. I've been in horses long enough to know that that strong race by Scat Daddy came from something else besides a couple of 1:02 works and galloping 1.5 miles at :18/f. Pletcher is doing something new this year, and it shows. I just want to know what. Catching an injury in its early stages to Ravel and all the rest of them are sound and running gate to wire catches my attention.

[MidwestTrainer]

No offense, but I am telling you what Pletcher does, and yes, recently. I respect your right to have your own opinion and training techniques. But I assure you he does not follow the same premise as you do. Everybody does things a different way, what matters is your own goals and values as a trainer. There is no one right way. I understand that you follow a different way of training compared to mainstream, and that is great. Trainers need to have the guts to follow their instinct, but there is more than one way to achieve results.

Personally, I don't train with your training method. It doesn't mean your wrong or I'm wrong, that is why they run races. I know you would refer to me as an imbecile and that is ok. My horses are sound and consistent and my owners and I are happy with the results. Just because you don't think it is possible to have horses run "strong" with less training than you would do doesn't make it fact.

It's not fair to insult other trainers or people on this board and assume they are less intelligent than any other.

[Rokeby Forever]

RatherRapid, just food for thought. Todd Pletcher has won two or three Eclipse Awards and has now suddenly discovered religion and is "easing up" on his stock - should he return his Eclipse Awards since he's admitting that his methods and oversights of the past were butchery?

[ratherrapid]

midwest, i hear what u r saying. and, i agree completely with what u posted. unable to disagree with a word except that my opinion of training and trainers differs from the way you characterized. my version of ur post--you to to gold's gym you'll never see two athlete's training exactly alike. multiple ways to skin the cat. just to clarify my views on training--i relate the terms imbecile and idiot and various derivations ive been known to use when i see a horse injured out of ignorance-- to the term trainer more in terms of injury than performance. there are certain training methods that are guaranteed to injure in my view, regardless of order of finish, and trainers who bury their head in the sand and risk their horses qualify as idiots in my book in terms of their training only even when they are nice and frequently intelligent people. there's a lot of people in our sport that fail to get the injury thing, though I've seen that change quite a bit of late. That's the way I look at things and try to separate things. I'll further say that i've been puzzled in the past at horses performing under light training. Never ceases to amaze me. I'm still learning on this.

rokebey--midwest just posted that pletcher's methods are unchanged. i'm just trying to absorb it and figure out how scat daddy and company unlike any other horses in training with the possible exception of one seem to run every race to the wire without tiring. I've rarely seen a horse do what scat daddy did in the fl. derby in the way that it was done.
today should be really interesting!