Will appreciate input on this commercial nick
griff
Not For Love X Anniebsmart by Skip Away
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Not For Love X Anniebsmart by Skip Away
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
I don't see Anniebsmart as a $75,000 mare or anywhere close to a $25,000 fee. Her dam had talent, but she was running in $14,000 claimers at Gulfstream. None of her siblings have done much on the track, and as her first dam is getting older it's less likely that she will have much "help" from that angle. I would not spend more than $5000 on her.
If you like the Not For Love bloodline, Love of Money is a first-season sire and may have some new sire "pop" to him. At $3,000 his fee is more in line with Anniebsmart's value.
If you want to be creative, you might try to duplicate the linebreeding to the mare Recce that produced Nobiz Like Shobiz. Go For Gin stands for $4,000.
Storm Cat has crossed well with Damascus. Both Gators and Bears and Fantasticat look interesting with Anniebsmart.
If you like the Not For Love bloodline, Love of Money is a first-season sire and may have some new sire "pop" to him. At $3,000 his fee is more in line with Anniebsmart's value.
If you want to be creative, you might try to duplicate the linebreeding to the mare Recce that produced Nobiz Like Shobiz. Go For Gin stands for $4,000.
Storm Cat has crossed well with Damascus. Both Gators and Bears and Fantasticat look interesting with Anniebsmart.
Kimberly Mine
I asked for input and appreciarte yours but I'd like to add that this a commercail venture as I think NOT FOR LOVES fee is going to go through the roof next year.. I;ve looked at the dams of some of his six figure get and it appears Anniebsmart is as good as most and better that many. I bought another mare to breed to NFL earlier this year and discovered \her sire's dam was his full sister and sent her to yankee gentleman instead. .
Anniebegood's dam is a stakes winner of $201k and her sire is Skip Away with over $9 million in winnings and more graded stakes wins than i can count on all my finngers. he was horse of the year at age 5 and is the second highet winner in TB history. I do believe the dam is very important but Skip Away did contribute one-half of her genes .
Lastly, this is a complete out-cross as I don't like Mr P sons crossed on other Mr P mares. A 3S X 4D to Mr P may be OK but a 2S X 4D to mr P is not.
By the way, I do like GO FOR GIN very much and will send Adamandia's Girl to him next year as I like what he does with Crytoclearance mares.
griff
I asked for input and appreciarte yours but I'd like to add that this a commercail venture as I think NOT FOR LOVES fee is going to go through the roof next year.. I;ve looked at the dams of some of his six figure get and it appears Anniebsmart is as good as most and better that many. I bought another mare to breed to NFL earlier this year and discovered \her sire's dam was his full sister and sent her to yankee gentleman instead. .
Anniebegood's dam is a stakes winner of $201k and her sire is Skip Away with over $9 million in winnings and more graded stakes wins than i can count on all my finngers. he was horse of the year at age 5 and is the second highet winner in TB history. I do believe the dam is very important but Skip Away did contribute one-half of her genes .
Lastly, this is a complete out-cross as I don't like Mr P sons crossed on other Mr P mares. A 3S X 4D to Mr P may be OK but a 2S X 4D to mr P is not.
By the way, I do like GO FOR GIN very much and will send Adamandia's Girl to him next year as I like what he does with Crytoclearance mares.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
hi griff
Beware...MANY (if not most) of the Skip Aways that I have seen are quite weak behind. That said...his better runners (at least those that I've viewed) were ALL among (what I might describe as) Skip Away's stronger-behind minority.
With that in mind...I would strongly recommend that if your mare Anniebsmart (by Skip Away) is one of those many Skip Aways that might be lacking behind, I sense that her chances to succeed as a broodmare might be significantly enhanced by selecting a powerhouse (at least behind) individual to breed her to.
Fair enough...but again, BEWARE...behind. The pedigree will be all but meaningless if your Skip Away mare produces the weak-behind type that Skip Away himself seems to often get.
I sense that Skip Away's weak-behind daughters (and I don't know that your mare Anniebsmart is one of them) will likely have a tendency to produce the same weak-behind type, unless the stallions they are bred to are the kind of horses that are likely to strengthen that weakness.
If your mare is one of those weak-behind Skip Aways...I STRONGLY suggest that priority #1 should be to select a stallion for her that has a particularly powerful hindquarters and hind leg.
Respectfully
griff wrote:Anniebsmart's dam is a stakes winner of $201k and her sire is Skip Away with over $9 million in winnings and more graded stakes wins than i can count on all my finngers. he was horse of the year at age 5 and is the second highet winner in TB history. I do believe the dam is very important but Skip Away did contribute one-half of her genes .
Beware...MANY (if not most) of the Skip Aways that I have seen are quite weak behind. That said...his better runners (at least those that I've viewed) were ALL among (what I might describe as) Skip Away's stronger-behind minority.
With that in mind...I would strongly recommend that if your mare Anniebsmart (by Skip Away) is one of those many Skip Aways that might be lacking behind, I sense that her chances to succeed as a broodmare might be significantly enhanced by selecting a powerhouse (at least behind) individual to breed her to.
griff wrote:I asked for input and appreciarte yours but I'd like to add that this a commercail venture as I think NOT FOR LOVES fee is going to go through the roof next year.. I;ve looked at the dams of some of his six figure get and it appears Anniebsmart is as good as most and better that many.
Fair enough...but again, BEWARE...behind. The pedigree will be all but meaningless if your Skip Away mare produces the weak-behind type that Skip Away himself seems to often get.
I sense that Skip Away's weak-behind daughters (and I don't know that your mare Anniebsmart is one of them) will likely have a tendency to produce the same weak-behind type, unless the stallions they are bred to are the kind of horses that are likely to strengthen that weakness.
If your mare is one of those weak-behind Skip Aways...I STRONGLY suggest that priority #1 should be to select a stallion for her that has a particularly powerful hindquarters and hind leg.
Respectfully
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
griff wrote:I'd like to add that this a commercail venture as I think NOT FOR LOVES fee is going to go through the roof next year.
Anniebegood's dam is a stakes winner of $201k and her sire is Skip Away with over $9 million in winnings and more graded stakes wins than i can count on all my finngers. he was horse of the year at age 5 and is the second highet winner in TB history. I do believe the dam is very important but Skip Away did contribute one-half of her genes .
Hi Griff,
Just browsing through Not For Love's yearling sales for last year. He had 54 offered for sale, 21 of which (give or take a few, I'm counting on fingers) either sold or RNA'd for 30,000 or less. Another 15 RNA'd with reserves higher than $30,000. $30,000 is, of course, the stud fee for Not For Love plus a seriously low-ball number for incidentals because I don't know if you have your own farm or not. In other words, only 30% of Not For Love's yearlings came even close to making back the cost of the fee/shipping/shots/farrier--let alone making a profit.
This tells me that while there is a decent market for Not For Love, it is a VERY selective market. Several of those money-losing yearlings were out of stakes producing mares or stakes winning mares. The market for a good Not For Love 2yo in training appears to be MUCH stronger...but that presumes you have a good one AND financially exposes you much more. And according to this market, you have a 70% chance of getting a "bad" one.
Even taking the shipping into account, you might have better luck (and a better chance of NOT taking a bath) with a Kentucky stallion. There are some good values there that might suit her--Pioneering, Marquetry, Cape Canaveral, or Van Niestelrooy. All of the above are $7500 or less and will offer equal or more value at the sales than Not For Love.
Best of luck to you.
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kimberley mine
- Breeder's Cup Contender
- Posts: 1811
- Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:43 pm
One more comment I'd like to add...
Basing a breeding decision on whether his fee going through the roof next year is speculation and is a VERY dangerous game. In essence, you are assuming that the value of that stallion will go up, and that you will have a "lower priced" product from that stallion that buyers will find desirable. Past performance is no indication of future results--and although a stallion manager can list fees on a whim, it is no guarantee that the market will respond.
Example: last year Giant's Causeway's fee soared to $300,000. His sales results hadn't justified that fee (look how many of his 7-figure yearlings were bought by Coolmore) and his racetrack results didn't justify that fee. This year, he is listed at private treaty, a fancy way of saying his fee is a whole lot lower but they don't want to tell you that. His sales results from last year imply that a lot of sellers took a bath, even in the northern hemisphere. Aussie breeders got scalped.
If you have a season for Not For Love or you are really, really, really wanting a NFL foal, by all means consider him--but since you are doing this for commercial purposes, make sure you are making a cold-hearted business decision based on the NOW and solid risk management principles, not speculation.
I asked for input and appreciarte yours but I'd like to add that this a commercail venture as I think NOT FOR LOVES fee is going to go through the roof next year..
Basing a breeding decision on whether his fee going through the roof next year is speculation and is a VERY dangerous game. In essence, you are assuming that the value of that stallion will go up, and that you will have a "lower priced" product from that stallion that buyers will find desirable. Past performance is no indication of future results--and although a stallion manager can list fees on a whim, it is no guarantee that the market will respond.
Example: last year Giant's Causeway's fee soared to $300,000. His sales results hadn't justified that fee (look how many of his 7-figure yearlings were bought by Coolmore) and his racetrack results didn't justify that fee. This year, he is listed at private treaty, a fancy way of saying his fee is a whole lot lower but they don't want to tell you that. His sales results from last year imply that a lot of sellers took a bath, even in the northern hemisphere. Aussie breeders got scalped.
If you have a season for Not For Love or you are really, really, really wanting a NFL foal, by all means consider him--but since you are doing this for commercial purposes, make sure you are making a cold-hearted business decision based on the NOW and solid risk management principles, not speculation.
Have you considered St. Averil
Hi Griff,
Have you considered St. Averil
With this cross you would get
4x5 Hail To Reason through Halo and Touch Dance
4x5 Diplomat Way through Ingot Way and Fancify
5x5 Sir Gaylord through Lord Gaylord and Sir Ivor
5x5 Soaring through Mehmet and Miss Swapsco
Isn't he at Maryland Stallion Station?
Keith
Have you considered St. Averil
With this cross you would get
4x5 Hail To Reason through Halo and Touch Dance
4x5 Diplomat Way through Ingot Way and Fancify
5x5 Sir Gaylord through Lord Gaylord and Sir Ivor
5x5 Soaring through Mehmet and Miss Swapsco
Isn't he at Maryland Stallion Station?
Keith
hi griff
I've seen so many Skip Aways that are what I might describe as 'weak behind'...I expect that's what Skip Away generally gets...and that it's not likely the result of EPM.
On the flip side...I have seen a couple of what I would describe as GRAND looking (and powerfully-made behind) Skip Aways. They were out of VERY strongly made mares (particularly behind), which I expect had an influence when producing their strong (behind) Skip Aways.
He was a GREAT racehorse and has certainly sired some quality stakes-winners/runners, but I would STRONGLY recommend to anyone considering using his services...breed a mare to him that's VERY strongly-made behind. I expect it would enhance your chances for success with SA.
Anyone that has a Skip Away mare that's lightly-made/weak behind might be wise to select a powerhouse stallion (especially behind) to breed her to...for obvious reasons.
Best to you.
Respectfully
griff wrote:FOS
Could these "weak behinds' be EPM ?/
griff
I've seen so many Skip Aways that are what I might describe as 'weak behind'...I expect that's what Skip Away generally gets...and that it's not likely the result of EPM.
On the flip side...I have seen a couple of what I would describe as GRAND looking (and powerfully-made behind) Skip Aways. They were out of VERY strongly made mares (particularly behind), which I expect had an influence when producing their strong (behind) Skip Aways.
He was a GREAT racehorse and has certainly sired some quality stakes-winners/runners, but I would STRONGLY recommend to anyone considering using his services...breed a mare to him that's VERY strongly-made behind. I expect it would enhance your chances for success with SA.
Anyone that has a Skip Away mare that's lightly-made/weak behind might be wise to select a powerhouse stallion (especially behind) to breed her to...for obvious reasons.
Best to you.
Respectfully
St Averil:
Nice looking stallion and I do like his tail female whichI think is more important in a breeding stallion than his sire line.
I'm looking to breed to sell and I'm concerned St Averil might not be commercial until he proves himself. If I were breeding to keep and race, which I might, I'd take her to Limit Out in WV. 80% winners from starters, 16% stakes harses and 10% stakes winners. On top of that he is as impressive as any stallion I've ever seen.
griff
Nice looking stallion and I do like his tail female whichI think is more important in a breeding stallion than his sire line.
I'm looking to breed to sell and I'm concerned St Averil might not be commercial until he proves himself. If I were breeding to keep and race, which I might, I'd take her to Limit Out in WV. 80% winners from starters, 16% stakes harses and 10% stakes winners. On top of that he is as impressive as any stallion I've ever seen.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]
Hi Griff,
I believe that Kimberley and FOS have offered sound advice.
I'm curious why you feel that Not For Love's stud fee will 'go through the roof'? MD Slots? I don't know that this will impact Not For Love very much but it might fim up some other MD sires a little. If NY is a guide (when slots were passed by the legislature) there was a greater impact on boarding farm rates.
Props to you too. At first you were building a case for the mating and then considered the advice offered. You can always go back to your original plan and buiding a case can be a slippery slope.
Good luck.
Pete
I believe that Kimberley and FOS have offered sound advice.
I'm curious why you feel that Not For Love's stud fee will 'go through the roof'? MD Slots? I don't know that this will impact Not For Love very much but it might fim up some other MD sires a little. If NY is a guide (when slots were passed by the legislature) there was a greater impact on boarding farm rates.
Props to you too. At first you were building a case for the mating and then considered the advice offered. You can always go back to your original plan and buiding a case can be a slippery slope.
Good luck.
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
We decided to take Anniebsmart to Limit Out for a breed to keep and race foal..Mid Atlantic Thoroughbred stats say he has 80.1% winners from starters, 16 % black type and 10% BTW.. And his fee is $3,500.
I did listen to what was provided in response and do appreciate all the inputs. And i did walk away fro NFL for this season.
As for Not For Love, Northview just send aan email notice out that he has the higest sales average or maybe it was median for 2 YO-In-Training sales in NA> Storm cat with his $500k fee has a median, maybe an average of $500k while Not For Love with his $25k fee has an average, maybe it was a median, of $625k.
What would you do if he were your stallion and guys like me started pounding on the door to get in?? he is the son of Mr Prospector out of a multi G-1 stakes winning daughter of Northern dancer and there are not too many stallion left around with that kind of breeding.
griff
I did listen to what was provided in response and do appreciate all the inputs. And i did walk away fro NFL for this season.
As for Not For Love, Northview just send aan email notice out that he has the higest sales average or maybe it was median for 2 YO-In-Training sales in NA> Storm cat with his $500k fee has a median, maybe an average of $500k while Not For Love with his $25k fee has an average, maybe it was a median, of $625k.
What would you do if he were your stallion and guys like me started pounding on the door to get in?? he is the son of Mr Prospector out of a multi G-1 stakes winning daughter of Northern dancer and there are not too many stallion left around with that kind of breeding.
griff
"We has met the enemy and he is us" [Pogo]