D Wayne Lukas

[casallc]

i say it's about 40% trainer 60% vet

the trainer shouldn't be sending unfit horses to the track anyway

the vet is supposed to be the stopgap for people like D Wayne

I can't say I disagree with that. I think a lot of trainers are unaware of the problems that might exist, though (especially trainers who rarely see their horses). Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Rokeby Forever]

I'm trying to understand what you consider "points of logic."

(1) A horse is limping around the barn, and the trainer enters the horse in a race. You're saying that the trainer has no responsibility for entering the horse...it's all up to the State Vet to decide if the horse should run? In other words, a trainer can say to himself, "Gee, I'll enter this cripple...maybe the State Vet is stupid enough to pass it."

(2) As far as John Veitch...he had a two year old for Calumet namd Tim The Tiger. Right before the Cowdin Stakes, Tim The Tiger broke through the gate exactly like Barbaro did...he was caught right away and reloaded. He won the race, and went on to make 14 more starts in his career. Did Veitch that day run to the stewards and scream, "Scratch my horse?", or was he all smiles in the winner's circle?

It's nice to know you believe everything you hear on TV, Cassalc.

[casallc]

I'm trying to understand what you consider "points of logic."

(1) A horse is limping around the barn, and the trainer enters the horse in a race. You're saying that the trainer has no responsibility for entering the horse...it's all up to the State Vet to decide if the horse should run? In other words, a trainer can say to himself, "Gee, I'll enter this cripple...maybe the State Vet is stupid enough to pass it."

(2) As far as John Veitch...he had a two year old for Calumet namd Tim The Tiger. Right beofre the Cowdin Stakes, Tim The Tiger broke through the gate exactly like Barbaro did...he was caught right away and reloaded. He won the race, and went on to make 14 more starts in his career. Did Veitch that day run to the stewards and scream, "Scratch my horse?", or was he all smiles in the winner's circle?

It's nice to know you believe everything you hear on TV, Cassalc.

OK, only one point of logic - Soundness of Cozzene breeding. Mostly, the rest is BS. I don't know any trainer that enters a limping horse (in a graded stake) and neither do you. Yea, I've never seen a real horse. I just watch a lot of TV

[Toccet02]

welll, I visited Churchill stables couple years back, and an assistant trainer told me that Birdstone was gimpy right before the Belmont.
Sure didn't hurt him any, though.

[Rokeby Forever]

And Birdstone lasted how long after the Travers?

[Toccet02]

And Birdstone lasted how long after the Travers?

I wasnae gonna say it, lad . . .I knew for sure ye would!

[Rokeby Forever]

Cassalc....remember when AP Indy was entered in the Derby and Drysdale scratched him that morning? Did he leave it up to the State Vet to scratch the horse?

A l'il time off, and what happened? AP Indy ran one of the best Belmont Stakes of all time.

[MidwestTrainer]

Trainers do enter gimpy horses in races, even big ones. Seen it first hand. Chris Antley has been quoted as saying he would have scratched Charismatic if he had been in any other race, but the Belmont. Hind sight he should have, but could you have imagined the backlash. Remember when Bailey scratched that horse at the gates a few years back? Trainer entered him right back and he pulled up.

Whether it is the poly or the fact that a lot of the "usual" trainers sat out the Derby this was a sounder group. The state vet I know(never "worked" the Derby) has many times said they were the sorest horses you would ever see. And she is right, go watch any replay of the Derby preview shows from years back.

Lukas is known for not having a sound horse in his barn, if he didn't enter anything that wasn't sore, he would have nothing to run.

It is a vicious cycle that starts from the top. The tracks don't want horses scratched and tell the state vets to only scratch if the horse is LAME, sore is not enough. Also they are told not to scratch a horse unless a rider brings in behind the gates. Lastly, the amount of injuries that can be covered up with drugs are amazing. They can't test for blocking, horses can get so much more than Bute to run.

[ageecee]

[quote="MidwestTrainer"]Trainers do enter gimpy horses in races, even big ones. Seen it first hand. Chris Antley has been quoted as saying he would have scratched Charismatic if he had been in any other race, but the Belmont. Hind sight he should have, but could you have imagined the backlash. Remember when Bailey scratched that horse at the gates a few years back? Trainer entered him right back and he pulled up.

Whether it is the poly or the fact that a lot of the "usual" trainers sat out the Derby this was a sounder group. The state vet I know(never "worked" the Derby) has many times said they were the sorest horses you would ever see. And she is right, go watch any replay of the Derby preview shows from years back.

Lukas is known for not having a sound horse in his barn, if he didn't enter anything that wasn't sore, he would have nothing to run.

It is a vicious cycle that starts from the top. The tracks don't want horses scratched and tell the state vets to only scratch if the horse is LAME, sore is not enough. Also they are told not to scratch a horse unless a rider brings in behind the gates. Lastly, the amount of injuries that can be covered up with drugs are amazing. They can't test for blocking, horses can get so much more than Bute to run.[/quote]




Didnt Bailey scratch Sun King for Zito that year?

[wallinga]

Did you guys always feel this way about D Wayne or was there a moment where you went... hang on?

[Rokeby Forever]

I actually felt that way about him ever since he broke down an unraced Alydar colt at Saratoga in 1986. The horse had a bucked shin, so he worked the horse hoping to buck the other one and pinfire them together. The colt got a saucer fracture and never raced.

I guess the average racing fan doesn't hear those kinds of stories. And I'm sure the members here know 1,000 others.

[FOS]

hi Rok

I wouldn't argue that some criticism re trainer D Wayne Lukas is not deserved...but I would argue that he is deserving some acknowledgement and some credit for what he has, and horses he's trained have, accomplished.

Very simply, seems to me your dishing out plenty of venom...but, little or no credit...and arguably Lukas is entitled to some credit. Come on Rok...how about a little love .

For some historical perspective (if it doesn't put you to sleep )...I first met Lukas after Albert Yank (in Cal) decided to deliver Effervescing to D Wayne (to train). For what it's worth, D Wayne seemed to be laid-back, somewhat preppy (you know, the starched khakis thing) and was definitely well-pressed (you know, the sharp creases thing). He seemed to be a good listener and a soft-spoken communicator (although he had a commanding clear-as-a-bell tone about him) with what I would describe as a professional way about him. Furthermore...he had an ability to say exactly what he meant while using relatively few words to make his point. At the same time, he came across as inclusive...not exclusive. Overall, his style and personna seemed appealing and refreshing (to me anyway).

Fast forward...Lukas arguably did better than good with Effervescing, and was credited with winning at a very high level with the colt that Yank delivered to him. Voila...Lukas' early success, coupled with his appeal, attracted a swarm of prospective owners...with lots of money. Lukas was launched.

Yes D Wayne has his detractors...but I for one would argue that Lukas has accomplished plenty, not only for himself but ALSO for many owners. I also understand that he's likely to be held responsible/accountable for his actions, including what might be described as his failings and/or shortcomings. Fair enough.

As for his strengths...among them I would submit that Lukas could certainly select a quality racing prospect...and he (and his crew) could target a race and get a horse ready to deliver a top performance (if not career-best) when the big chips were up for grabs. Arguably...those days might be long gone, but he (and Team Lukas) did it oh-so-many-times for years.

I would also submit that Lukas became a media favorite who was not only a well-spoken and often interesting if not captivating interview, but that he also positively affected (in general) the public's perception of and interest in thoroughbred horseracing. I see that as another Lukas strength.

All things consdered...I would suggest that to exclude any positive impact and/or influence that D Wayne Lukas had on the thoroughbred racing game, not to mention his accomplishments and those of many horses he trained (for a multitude of owners), is not only unfair, but also unacceptable...at least from my perspective.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[wallinga]

he's also a very good trainer of people. think about all the assistant trainers that have gone on... a bit like Bart Cummings here. Wins a lot of great races, breaks a fair number of horses down and his foremen invariably go on to be great trainers in there own right.

[Rokeby Forever]

Hi FOS,

I'll concede....Mr Lukas has a nice smile in front of a camera, has always put a positive light on racing when asked a question, and has won more than his share of big races.

I remember when he first took stalls at Belmont Park in 1985 (Barn 26, to be exact). He hired a landscaper to plant rosebeds and lots of shrubbery around his barn, and the place was picturesque - lots of green and white "DWL" things all over the place. Good for him.

Across the backstretch roadway were everyday trainers like Steve Shaeffer, Rick Schossberg, Bobby Ribaudo, Gil Puentes, and Steve Sech. How did they feel when their owners came to their barns and saw Lukas's fortress across the roadway? Your soft-spoken friend had a way of sticking their noses in the ground, didn't he?

Could Mr Lukas select a nice colt? Yes...especially after his spotters like Clyde Rice did his homework for him. He would have never bid on Life's Magic unless Mr Rice grabbed Mr Lukas out of the sales cafeteria and said, "A filly's just come into the paddock that you should look at!"

If you read my tagline below, it's next to impossible for me to have any good thoughts about Mr Lukas. Like I wrote, I'll concede that he's always had a flair for the TV camera, he's won lots of races, he could spot a nice horse, and he gave racing fans a different kind of personality from a crabby Woody Stephens (no love between those two men, FOS!). Mr Miller liked Mr Lukas...Mr Miller was 180 degrees from Mr Lukas with training methods and philosophies, but there was never a bad word between them.

Best,
Rokeby

[Rokeby Forever]

Wallinga....except for Ken Rodine, his top NY assistant after Kiaran McLaughlin quit training and became Chris Antley's agent. Ken Rodine left the business and went on his merry way somewhere.