Great information Pete.
It appears to be a pretty daunting task. I guess the dual registration may not be a attractive as I thought it would be. Maybe the dual registration will be something to look for as a buyer at the sales. Look forward to speaking with you soon.
stallion business question
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Monmouth Matt
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silly question, but I have to ask. What if you like a colt that you know will have absolutely ZERO attraction to the general public, but You really like him and want to breed a few mares to him. Can that be done? I mean, would a farm allow you to send a stallion to them for maybe one or two breedings? Hows that work?
Dray,
Your best bet for that stallion would be to find a warmblood or QH farm that may like to stand him to other breeds. Lots of stallions are back yard breeders, and never get advertised. Some are even owned by colleges or universities that use him to breed or tease just a few mares a year. Teaser studs get the array of broodmares from nurse mares that need covering to very nice show horses.
Your best bet for that stallion would be to find a warmblood or QH farm that may like to stand him to other breeds. Lots of stallions are back yard breeders, and never get advertised. Some are even owned by colleges or universities that use him to breed or tease just a few mares a year. Teaser studs get the array of broodmares from nurse mares that need covering to very nice show horses.
Hi Dray,
I think that the type of stallion that you mention is perhaps the majority in raw numbers in North America today.
As long as you're willing to pay the expenses there are farms that will stand the stallion for you. Of course you need to choose a farm carefully for their ability to take proper care off the stallion, handle the breeding process and do things like the required paperwork.
You need to decide what you wish to achieve and where it would be most beneficial to stand the stallion and work from there.
Intidab started his career in KY with little support and was returned to Gallagher Stud in NY basically as a house stallion. From his 8 live foals of that first KY crop he got the nice runner, Greater Good and a return ticket to KY.
Regards,
Pete
I think that the type of stallion that you mention is perhaps the majority in raw numbers in North America today.
As long as you're willing to pay the expenses there are farms that will stand the stallion for you. Of course you need to choose a farm carefully for their ability to take proper care off the stallion, handle the breeding process and do things like the required paperwork.
You need to decide what you wish to achieve and where it would be most beneficial to stand the stallion and work from there.
Intidab started his career in KY with little support and was returned to Gallagher Stud in NY basically as a house stallion. From his 8 live foals of that first KY crop he got the nice runner, Greater Good and a return ticket to KY.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Hi Matt,
The problem with dual eligibility is that it doesn't add value to those that breed to race because we can assume that they breed in the region that they intend to race. Few people think far enough ahead to realize that it might be nice to be eligible to run in a restricted MDN at Monmouth when a similar race at Belmont looks too tough.
Where it might have some benefit is for sales youngsters. Most buyers do look at the nominations and engagements but they to are usually looking for a specific region to race and a dual eligible NY/NJ bred might appeal to more people but not in a cumulative way (they like the foal for either it's NJ or NY status). If the stallion isn't highly commercial then it's doubtful that breeders will want to spend very much on extra nominations. Between JClub, State, BC and indiviual stakes registrations and noms you could spend a lot of money.
Regards,
Pete
The problem with dual eligibility is that it doesn't add value to those that breed to race because we can assume that they breed in the region that they intend to race. Few people think far enough ahead to realize that it might be nice to be eligible to run in a restricted MDN at Monmouth when a similar race at Belmont looks too tough.
Where it might have some benefit is for sales youngsters. Most buyers do look at the nominations and engagements but they to are usually looking for a specific region to race and a dual eligible NY/NJ bred might appeal to more people but not in a cumulative way (they like the foal for either it's NJ or NY status). If the stallion isn't highly commercial then it's doubtful that breeders will want to spend very much on extra nominations. Between JClub, State, BC and indiviual stakes registrations and noms you could spend a lot of money.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
hi Pete
After standing his first season at stud in Kentucky in 2001 (for an advertised fee of $12,500)...Intidab was moved to Wycombe House Stud near Ocala, where he stood the 2002 season for $6,000.
If you click on the following title
Intidab Relocated To Wycombe House you can retrieve the article announcing his move from Ky to Florida.
For what it's worth...Intidab (by Phone Trick) didn't get much respect in Florida either...his 2003 foal crop (per the Thoroughbred Times 2007 Stallion Directory) numbered 4. Yes 4...OUCH.
Not that it matters a whole lot...but I recall Intidab as a strongly-made dark brown horse...with a foot concern (clubby?) up front. Other than the foot issue, I don't remember him being so bad. Regardless...the way he was managed (or left to flounder might be a better description) almost leads me to believe that Team Shadwell might have forgotten that they owned him; and when they recognized the oversight, Intidab was seemingly handled as an unimportant afterthought.
Respectfully
Pete wrote:Intidab started his career in KY with little support and was returned to Gallagher Stud in NY basically as a house stallion. From his 8 live foals of that first KY crop he got the nice runner, Greater Good and a return ticket to KY.
After standing his first season at stud in Kentucky in 2001 (for an advertised fee of $12,500)...Intidab was moved to Wycombe House Stud near Ocala, where he stood the 2002 season for $6,000.
If you click on the following title
Intidab Relocated To Wycombe House you can retrieve the article announcing his move from Ky to Florida.
For what it's worth...Intidab (by Phone Trick) didn't get much respect in Florida either...his 2003 foal crop (per the Thoroughbred Times 2007 Stallion Directory) numbered 4. Yes 4...OUCH.
Not that it matters a whole lot...but I recall Intidab as a strongly-made dark brown horse...with a foot concern (clubby?) up front. Other than the foot issue, I don't remember him being so bad. Regardless...the way he was managed (or left to flounder might be a better description) almost leads me to believe that Team Shadwell might have forgotten that they owned him; and when they recognized the oversight, Intidab was seemingly handled as an unimportant afterthought.
Respectfully
Matt/Pete/Others - I have one thought or question I guess on this issue of dual state-bred qualified bloostock.
It occurs to me that there might be one market segment that could have a special interest in such foals - the mid-Atlantic area based trainers.
I remember a Texas trainer who went to the mid-Atlantic area after trying to make it in S. California explain to me that he had a much greater frequency of opportunity for getting a horse in a race when he wanted (i.e. when the horse was peaking/ready) and/or for the conditions he was seeking in that area b/c there were no less than three tracks in two states within an hour's drive of his training barn operating simultaneous or overlapping meets and at times 4 tracks. Now the Texas trainer I was referring to was talking about racing his open company runners that could be 'placed' entered at any state's tracks. I would think that along those same lines a Pa-based/NJ-based trainer with a dual state-bred qualified runner would enjoy both the financial incentives of restricted race purses AND the greater flexibility in where and when to opt for entering the horse to run.
I know as an owner trying to find a soft spot for a Tx-bred to start I've more than once wished there were more TB races carded at Manor Downs, a Class II Track that operates a mixed meet with the emphasis on QHs and partially overlapping the TB meet at Sam Houston. To try a softer spot for a young horse's first out without dropping into claimers it's nice to able to go two hours down the road as a shipper.
Vice versa.....if MSWs for Tx-breds at SHRP are over filling and super competitve (which they ususally are) while Tx-bred Mdn Clmg races with the somewhat higher purses due to Tx-Acc'd incentives at SHRP are little different in terms of the competition to draw in and horses you race against....AND.....you feel your horse is of good capability, a good shipper and 'ready' you can try the 'open' MSWs or Mdn Claimers at Delta Downs, a three hour drive to the east with their slots enhanced purses.
Many trainers seem to have at least one or more horses they "own" and race, plus a mare or two back at the farm. In fact there are entire nights' cards at SHRP where it seems every other horse entered is a "Breeder/Owner/Trainer" horse. Isn't that a segment of the market to try and appeal to under Matt's supposition? Especially so since I think a trainer/owner is much more likely to race a horse they bred rather than go the 'sale' route?
The Lone Star Park (at Grand Prairie, Texas) - Remington Park (OK) and either Oaklawn (Hot Springs, AR.) or La. Downs (Bossier City, LA) is another example of this dynamic of seemingly competing racing jurisdictions actually offering a smorgasbord of races/conditions/surfaces for the trainer to consider but for the most part only for his "OPEN" company runners. Matt's idea for a dual State-restricted qualified horse in the mid-Atlantic area (where driving distances are not near so daunting as in Texas) seems to put another card or two in the trainer's hand when it comes to trying to find the best fit at the right time for each horse to run his race.
Am I missing something here with this thought process???? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this...
It occurs to me that there might be one market segment that could have a special interest in such foals - the mid-Atlantic area based trainers.
I remember a Texas trainer who went to the mid-Atlantic area after trying to make it in S. California explain to me that he had a much greater frequency of opportunity for getting a horse in a race when he wanted (i.e. when the horse was peaking/ready) and/or for the conditions he was seeking in that area b/c there were no less than three tracks in two states within an hour's drive of his training barn operating simultaneous or overlapping meets and at times 4 tracks. Now the Texas trainer I was referring to was talking about racing his open company runners that could be 'placed' entered at any state's tracks. I would think that along those same lines a Pa-based/NJ-based trainer with a dual state-bred qualified runner would enjoy both the financial incentives of restricted race purses AND the greater flexibility in where and when to opt for entering the horse to run.
I know as an owner trying to find a soft spot for a Tx-bred to start I've more than once wished there were more TB races carded at Manor Downs, a Class II Track that operates a mixed meet with the emphasis on QHs and partially overlapping the TB meet at Sam Houston. To try a softer spot for a young horse's first out without dropping into claimers it's nice to able to go two hours down the road as a shipper.
Vice versa.....if MSWs for Tx-breds at SHRP are over filling and super competitve (which they ususally are) while Tx-bred Mdn Clmg races with the somewhat higher purses due to Tx-Acc'd incentives at SHRP are little different in terms of the competition to draw in and horses you race against....AND.....you feel your horse is of good capability, a good shipper and 'ready' you can try the 'open' MSWs or Mdn Claimers at Delta Downs, a three hour drive to the east with their slots enhanced purses.
Many trainers seem to have at least one or more horses they "own" and race, plus a mare or two back at the farm. In fact there are entire nights' cards at SHRP where it seems every other horse entered is a "Breeder/Owner/Trainer" horse. Isn't that a segment of the market to try and appeal to under Matt's supposition? Especially so since I think a trainer/owner is much more likely to race a horse they bred rather than go the 'sale' route?
The Lone Star Park (at Grand Prairie, Texas) - Remington Park (OK) and either Oaklawn (Hot Springs, AR.) or La. Downs (Bossier City, LA) is another example of this dynamic of seemingly competing racing jurisdictions actually offering a smorgasbord of races/conditions/surfaces for the trainer to consider but for the most part only for his "OPEN" company runners. Matt's idea for a dual State-restricted qualified horse in the mid-Atlantic area (where driving distances are not near so daunting as in Texas) seems to put another card or two in the trainer's hand when it comes to trying to find the best fit at the right time for each horse to run his race.
Am I missing something here with this thought process???? I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on this...
Hi Jellac,
You're absolutely right that a dual eligible horse would be appealing for owners/trainers to better find appropriate races and unfortunately for the breeder these horses are even more appealing to people that are looking to claim horses. They gain all the advantage and lose nothing (like breeders' awards).
I look to claim them all the time.
The upside is that if a breeder wants to lose the horse to a claim they stay viable longer.
Regards,
Pete
You're absolutely right that a dual eligible horse would be appealing for owners/trainers to better find appropriate races and unfortunately for the breeder these horses are even more appealing to people that are looking to claim horses. They gain all the advantage and lose nothing (like breeders' awards).
I look to claim them all the time.
The upside is that if a breeder wants to lose the horse to a claim they stay viable longer.
Regards,
Pete
Has a palomino jean that pop up some.
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
This stallion is DNA ... all foal can be MBNA inrolled.
Horses like their credit cards. - Four Forty Farms
Dray..we have a stallion here that the owner has asked us NOT to breed outside mares..he bred 5 mares to him this year and will see what the future holds when those foals are born next year. The stallion would not appeal to many people but for this owner he is the horse he has always wanted and I hope the owners foals can run and do well for him. Finding a farm to meet your needs if you dont want or have a commercial stallion is the key but there are smaller farms that will accomodate you.
FOS wrote:.......For what it's worth...Intidab (by Phone Trick) didn't get much respect in Florida either...his 2003 foal crop (per the Thoroughbred Times 2007 Stallion Directory) numbered 4. Yes 4...OUCH....
Respectfully
Well for the 2005/2006 year he had 32 live foals out of 59 covers..
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....