Thoughts on Bernstein

hpkingjr · Postby **hpkingjr** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:08 pm

I am looking for thoughts and insights on Bernstein. In Argentina the last time they were this excited they were talking about Eva Peron. His strike rate for stakes horses and in particular grade 1's in South America is truly amazing. It also appears his daughters are better than his sons. Is there more Buckpasser blood in Argentina? Is Busanda the key to his success?

He's doing all right in the USA but much, much better in Argentina. Cough up the good stuff.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:22 pm

I would say a lot of it is due to the Busanda blood. I dont disregard ANY stallion tail-female to Busanda and I think they're proving to be the best stallion branch of La Troienne, with young guns Bernstein, Officer, Sky Mesa, Wiseman's Ferry, etc. either proving themselves useful or having exciting foals on the ground.

It seems he wants more Busanda, Princequillo, and Nasrullah. Northern Dancer inbreeding has been very well-received by him as well.

If I had a mare loaded with Princequillo or Nasrullah, he would be on the top of my list. His strike rate with them is incredible.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:05 pm

Bernstein's been bred to a lot of Egg Toss, and the double up to Busanda has been terrific for him.

That dreaded Black and Cherry blood, huh Maven? It can overcome even Storm Cat poison!

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:01 am

No one said anything about "dreaded Black and Cherry"... I was just pointing out that you're the only one on this board that automatically puts anything in the silks on a pedistal, which is ridiculous.

And for the record, with amazing foresight, I believe the Phipps don't have one remaining broodmare/runner that is tail-female to Busanda. Just saying...

horsenuts · Postby **horsenuts** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:19 am

Rokeby Forever wrote:Bernstein's been bred to a lot of Egg Toss, and the double up to Busanda has been terrific for him.

That dreaded Black and Cherry blood, huh Maven? It can overcome even Storm Cat poison!

"Poison"? You are aware that few if any breeders have breed to more "Poison" then the "Black and Cherry" family are you not?

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:22 am

Maven - maybe that's because so many of their top broodmares like Relaxing, Numbered Account, and Con Game were by Buckpasser?

Same argument with other top broodmares like Lassie Dear, or even a Phipps cull like Playmate. The Busanda came from Buckpasser.

Yeah, Horsenuts....Storm Cat blood has done wonders for Mr Sekiguchi, hasn't it? Storm Cat doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same thread as Busanda.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:10 am

So, with your logic, get rid of the dam-line that gave you one of your best stallions. Interesting. Now I can see why you like them so much.

horsenuts · Postby **horsenuts** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:15 am

Rokeby Forever wrote:Maven - maybe that's because so many of their top broodmares like Relaxing, Numbered Account, and Con Game were by Buckpasser?

Same argument with other top broodmares like Lassie Dear, or even a Phipps cull like Playmate. The Busanda came from Buckpasser.

Yeah, Horsenuts....Storm Cat blood has done wonders for Mr Sekiguchi, hasn't it? Storm Cat doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same thread as Busanda.

<<Storm Cat doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same thread as Busand.a>> Then WHY have the Phipps Stable bred so MANY of their mares to Storm Cat over the past 5-10 years? Again, few breeders have bred more of their mares to Storm Cat then have the Phipps stable.

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:18 am

horsenuts wrote:
Rokeby Forever wrote:Maven - maybe that's because so many of their top broodmares like Relaxing, Numbered Account, and Con Game were by Buckpasser?

Same argument with other top broodmares like Lassie Dear, or even a Phipps cull like Playmate. The Busanda came from Buckpasser.

Yeah, Horsenuts....Storm Cat blood has done wonders for Mr Sekiguchi, hasn't it? Storm Cat doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same thread as Busanda.

<<Storm Cat doesn't even deserve to be mentioned on the same thread as Busand.a>> Then WHY have the Phipps Stable bred so MANY of their mares to Storm Cat over the past 5-10 years? Again, few breeders have bred more of their mares to Storm Cat then have the Phipps stable.

While also getting rid of every mare that was tail-female to Busanda.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:05 pm

Maven - a lot of those broodmares were pensioned or died. If Phipps got rid of them, who's breeding them?

And how many of their mares were bred to Private Account? None of them could have had Busanda - and if you think about it, a mare like My Flag is already inbred to Buckpasser, anyway. So, she lives through the sires.

Horsenuts...you proved my point. How much of a powerhouse has the Phipps stable been since wrecking mares with Storm Cat? I don't exactly see Overbrook's colors winning everything in sight these day, either. All the Storm Cat mares that farm has and all Overbrook has to show for it is Jump Start?

Maven · Postby **Maven** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:37 pm

Actually, Harbor View picked up the Busanda line mares from the Phipps' who considered them "culls". These culls produced champion Outstandingly, Sensation, Fortitude, Systematic, Bernstein, Caress, Sky Mesa, Country Cat, Della Francesca, Lovelier, who are just the GRADED or GROUP winners through ONE Busanda granddaughter, La Mesa.

And to say they got rid of Busanda line mares because they had a lot of Buckpasser blood in their broodmare band is ridiculous. Why wouldn't you want to cross another line in?

Further more, with that logic, they should have gotten rid of every Numbered Account, Grecian Banner, Flitabout, etc, line mare they had.

The idea that they'd get rid of a dam line because it produced possibly their best stallion is absurd.

The truth of the matter is, they gave Busanda daughters ONE generation to breed on, and the only one that gave them something immediately was Navsup, who produced Polish Navy. That line is now essentially dead without much to show for it.

They underestimated the line, culled it, and im sure they presently wish they hadn't. But in their defense, everyone culls a good one every now and then, but they culled the whole dam line. She only had 3 daughters to begin with. It was foolish.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:42 pm

If I knew then what I know now? There's a Presidential candidate that uses that line and is respected by followers for it.

This is all in retrospect, and the Phipps culled other lines, as well. And not just fillies - what about an unload like Sovereign Dancer? The Phipps' never ran a mega-operation with broodmares everywhere.

Should they have kept Busanda line mares? After the fact, of course they should have. But the first generation was a flop and they had no reason to think it would have the success it later had. Navsup gave them something "immediate?" They probably threw in the towel in 1983 (she was 17) and bred her to an unproven Danzig.

halo · Postby **halo** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:57 pm

Interestingly every one of Busanda's colts were either stakes winners or stakes placed. Everyone. They all ran. Of her 3 fillies, all made the races and not a single one broke her maiden. Would seem to me that her colts were a much stronger group than her fillies.

horsenuts · Postby **horsenuts** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:44 pm

Rokeby Forever wrote:Maven - a lot of those broodmares were pensioned or died. If Phipps got rid of them, who's breeding them?

And how many of their mares were bred to Private Account? None of them could have had Busanda - and if you think about it, a mare like My Flag is already inbred to Buckpasser, anyway. So, she lives through the sires.

Horsenuts...you proved my point. How much of a powerhouse has the Phipps stable been since wrecking mares with Storm Cat? I don't exactly see Overbrook's colors winning everything in sight these day, either. All the Storm Cat mares that farm has and all Overbrook has to show for it is Jump Start?

Phipps stable have also had plenty of Danzig's and AP Indy's that amounted to nothing over the past 10 years as well. Lets not put all the blame on Storm Cat for the blood running thin on the Phipps stable's once powerful broodmare band.

Rokeby Forever · Postby **Rokeby Forever** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:15 pm

Smuggler didn't have a drop of Storm Cat and won an Eclipse Award. Pine Island didn't have a drop of Storm Cat and was the favorite in the BC Distaff. Pleasant Home doesn't have a drop of Storm Cat blood and she won the BC Distaff by nine lengths. That's just in the last three years. All coincidence, I guess.

Convenient avoidance...Overbrook is up to its eyeballs with Storm Cat blood. Let's hear about all the Overbrook "success" over the last five years.