Poor racehorse/good stallion

[cewright]

but when the topic is specifically re average-to-poor racehorses who have made good or great stallions, I might suggest Princequillo for consideration. A lowly claimer made-good.

From the PQ Database
Princequillo Won: Saratoga Cup, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Saratoga H, Merchants' And Citizens' H, Questionnaire H 2nd: Whitney S (twice) 3rd: Dwyer S, Empire City H

A lowly claimer

Regards

Chuck

[CA Michael]

FRIEND'S CHOICE (Crimson Satan) was a minor allowance winner who sired the outstanding champion sprinter DAVE'S CHOICE (whose fascinating pedigree should be researched).

LORD GAYLORD (Sir Gaylord) won one race, sired champion LORD AVIE and many other top graded stakes winners.

ATAN (Native Dancer) won his only start and sired SHARPEN UP.

WHISKEY ROAD (Nijinsky II) was unplaced in one start and sired STRAWBERRY ROAD.

GUN SHOT (Hyperion) only won two races, but sired champion GUN BOW and many other stakes winners. His is another pedigree worth study.

*ALCIBIADES II (Alycidon) only won two races but was a very successful sire in Florida in the 50s and 60's.

CONSULTANT'S BID (Bold Bidder) won two of six starts and sired BAYAKOA

FAIR RULER (*Nasrullah) won one race and sired champion OFFICE QUEEN and many other good stakes winners.

WHAT LUCK (Bold Ruler) won two races of six and sired countless stakes winners, including the brilliant fillies WHAT A SUMMER and AMBASSADOR OF LUCK.

His full brother THE IRISH LORD won only one race but sired a plethora of very fast stakes winners in California. A third full brother, KING EMPEROR, was the second best 2yo in 1968, but sired fewer stakes winners (and of lower quality) than his two lesser siblings.

RAJAB (Jaipur) placed in several stakes, won 4 races, and was a mainstay FLorida stallion. He sired champion BRAVE RAJ.

NATIVE BORN (Native Dancer) won three small races in Washington but sired champion sprinter CHINOOK PASS (whose pedigree is very interesting, too).

Any number of moderately to poor performing U.S. bred stallions which were exported to the southern hemisphere have done exceptionally well. Without question, SIR TRISTRAM is the best example of this phenomenon. Winner of three small races, he at one point was the world's leading sire of graded/group stakes winners.

[FOS]

hi cewright

but when the topic is specifically re average-to-poor racehorses who have made good or great stallions, I might suggest Princequillo for consideration. A lowly claimer made-good.

From the PQ Database
Princequillo Won: Saratoga Cup, Jockey Club Gold Cup, Saratoga H, Merchants' And Citizens' H, Questionnaire H 2nd: Whitney S (twice) 3rd: Dwyer S, Empire City H

A lowly claimer

Regards

Chuck

Yes Chuck...a lowly claimer, made good (as I stated previously). Among the info that the data base doesn't tell you/us is that Princequillo was claimed for $1,500...and (as a result) ended up in the hands of legendary trainer Horatio Luro (maybe best remembered today as the trainer of Northern Dancer). Luro managed the colt exceptionally well, and won some nice (and very long by today's standards) stakes-races with him. In some of those races Princequillo received a weight advantage...and arguably that edge, plus what I might describe as the Luro-advantage, enhanced his chances to succeed.

Princequillo was basically a horse that had lots of stamina...and reportedly stood for an initial stud fee of $250 (yes two-hundred fifty dollars) at Claiborne.

The course of events surrounding Princequillo's very existence (much less his career as a racehorse, then sire) could likely be movie material.

Think about it...his sire (the outstanding racehorse Prince Rose) was moved from Belgium to France (due to concerns related to WWII) where he covered French stakes-winner Cosquilla. Cosquilla (while carrying Princequillo) was shipped to Ireland (apparently due to concerns related to the war in France) where she foaled. Cosquilla and her foal were then transported via ship (the only way then) to the USA.

The young colt was sold to a horseracing aficionado from Louisiana, who raced him. Named Princequillo, he was claimed for $1,500 (in his fourth or fifth start), got in the hands of trainer Horatio Luro...and the rest is history.

Yes...I would describe Princequillo as a lowly claimer made good.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Betsy]

hi Jagger...hi LaTroienne...hi Toccet02...hi guys

The question was...

Have there been many examples of average-to-poor racehorses who have made good or great stallions?

Jagger responded...

Mr. Prospector would deserve some consideration for this category.

Ridiculous...MAKE NO MISTAKE Mr Prospector was freaky fast. He did have some physical issues that required time and patience (and arguably did compromise/affect his career), but trainer Jimmy Croll dealt with it. Mr Prospector had afterburners...and when he was right, WOW, look out. To suggest that he might have been an average racehorse, is simply absurd (at least to my way of thinking).

Not a poor runner but certainly no great shakes either...

No great shakes as a racehorse...Mr Prospector? His regular rider, Hall of Famer Walter Blum, described Mr Prospector by saying (and I quote) "he was a Fu**ing Freak."

For the record...Mr Prospector was absolutely, positively a BRILLIANT freaky-fast racehorse. Despite his physical issues, he won 7 of his 14 lifetime starts....was 1st, 2nd or 3rd in 13 of his 14 lifetime starts...and set two New Track Records (GP-6f 1:07 4/5; GS-6f 1:08 3/5). Hardly average by any stretch of the imagination.

Danzig broke down before he had a chance to prove himself and wasn't a major winner. Similarly, Raise a Native broke down before he had a chance to run majorly, but became a top sire.

Both Danzig and Raise A Native had physical issues too. Regardless, both were fast fast fast and both were undefeated (Danzig 3 for 3, Raise a Native 4 for 4 and 2-yo Champion). To even suggest that they were average to poor racehorses, seems way out of line (and/or misguided) as far as I'm concerned.

Meadowlake was another with but a three race career (but he too was undefeated)...would you call him an average-to-poor racehorse too? I wouldn't.

I find it difficult to understand how any knowledgeable horseperson might describe any of the above as average-to-poor racehorses...in the context of the question (asked by Toccet02, above).

What about Silver Deputy, a mere 2 career starts, but both winning efforts (including the Swynford Stakes at Woodbine)? Yes he was undefeated, but he did it in Toronto...and his winning times were not particularly sparkling...6 furlongs in 1:11 3/5 and 6 1/2 furlongs in 1:17 1/5...hmmm. Would it be fair to include him among average-to-poor racehorses?

If the topic was related to soundness/physical issues and/or length of career, that's a different topic altogether...but when the topic is specifically re average-to-poor racehorses who have made good or great stallions, I might suggest Princequillo for consideration. A lowly claimer made-good.

Arguably, Malibu Moon might fall into the average racehorse (that made good as a sire) category. One win in two maiden races...and a best Rag#14 1/4...hmmm.

Best to you.

Respectfully

I don't think Malibu Moon fits this category at all. He only had two starts as a baby (actually, two in his whole career) and he won his 2nd start in 57 and change. He was a very, very precocious AP Indy. I would not call him a poor racehorse. He as a very talented colt who was not able to prove himself further

[FOS]

hi Betsy

... ... ... Arguably, Malibu Moon might fall into the average racehorse (that made good as a sire) category. One win in two maiden races...and a best Rag#14 1/4...hmmm.

I don't think Malibu Moon fits this category at all. He only had two starts as a baby (actually, two in his whole career) and he won his 2nd start in 57 and change. He was a very, very precocious AP Indy. I would not call him a poor racehorse. He as a very talented colt who was not able to prove himself further

For starters...I did NOT refer to Malibu Moon as a poor racehorse, those were your words...not mine.

Fact is though...he never raced against winners, and never proved that he could do anything more than win over maidens (and that was in his second attempt, as I mentioned). Furthermore (and for what it's worth) Malibu Moon's best Rag# (which by the way was 14 1/4) was earned in his first start, a race which he did not win...hmmm.

Certainly a case might be made that his two lifetime efforts (the second one being a winning one) could have been a foundation that might have been built upon, and that had Malibu Moon gone on...he might have become a very nice (or better) racehorse. Reality is though, he didn't...hence, all is speculation (as to what he might have been).

That said...I have a difficult time considering MM much more than a one race winner (from 2 maiden attempts versus non-winners) that was assigned a 14 1/4 Rag#.

Best to you.

Respectfully

[Rokeby Forever]

Hello folks,

You have to wonder about the insanity behind revving up an AP Indy colt to run :57 in the spring of its two year old season. That kind of speed from an AP Indy tells me that Malibu Moon had IMMENSE ability but it was squandered faster than a rabbit gets.....well, you know what rabbits are noted for.

[Betsy]

hi Betsy

... ... ... Arguably, Malibu Moon might fall into the average racehorse (that made good as a sire) category. One win in two maiden races...and a best Rag#14 1/4...hmmm.

I don't think Malibu Moon fits this category at all. He only had two starts as a baby (actually, two in his whole career) and he won his 2nd start in 57 and change. He was a very, very precocious AP Indy. I would not call him a poor racehorse. He as a very talented colt who was not able to prove himself further

For starters...I did NOT refer to Malibu Moon as a poor racehorse, those were your words...not mine.

Fact is though...he never raced against winners, and never proved that he could do anything more than win over maidens (and that was in his second attempt, as I mentioned). Furthermore (and for what it's worth) Malibu Moon's best Rag# (which by the way was 14 1/4) was earned in his first start, a race which he did not win...hmmm.

Certainly a case might be made that his two lifetime efforts (the second one being a winning one) could have been a foundation that might have been built upon, and that had Malibu Moon gone on...he might have become a very nice (or better) racehorse. Reality is though, he didn't...hence, all is speculation (as to what he might have been).

That said...I have a difficult time considering MM much more than a one race winner (from 2 maiden attempts versus non-winners) that was assigned a 14 1/4 Rag#.

Best to you.

Respectfully

Average, poor, whatever. I still disagree with you calling MM average, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. Unproven, yes, but average? IMO, he didn't get a chance to prove anything other than that he was very talented. Either way, 2 starts was hardly enough to make a judgment call on him, at least IMO As for his Rags figure, that means nothing to me since he was a baby with only 2 starts under his belt. Whatever the Rags people had to say about him, MM had the California horse people buzzing. They thought they had seen a star in the making- that counts for me more than a Rags number at a very short distance.

Rokeby, I usually disagree with you, but I can't on your point about MM. The thing is, if he was ready to run, then he was ready to run. Richard Mandella ran an AP Indy colt a few weeks ago (Booted) at 5 (or 5 1/2 , I forget) furlongs even though he was obviously not cut out to be a sprinter. His rationale was that the horse was doing so well and he didn't want him to sour in the barn when he was ready to run. That could have happened with MM........although 57 is pushing it to be sure.

[wallinga]

SIR TRISTRAM is the best example of this phenomenon.

fact

[pokeyman]

Not for Love?

[Cathy D]

Malibu Moon did have enormous talent, though. He won that baby race coming from off the pace and just blew by 'em. It may not show in the RAG number, but speed and length of stride are evident in the race replay. He looked like Seattle Slew in motion.

Fairy King might be an example. Unplaced in one start (due to injury, maybe?) to leading sire.

[Keith]

Sovereign Dancer
Vice Regent
Drone
Blade
Two Punch
Cutlass
Pioneering

Maybe not great stallions other than Vice Regent and Drone a ver successful broodmare sire.


Keith

[Foggytrip]

Enormous talent? I have a 30k claiming 2yo that ran 14 rag.