There have been reports that over the last few years, some sales company's inspectors for select sales have been buying horses right off the farm during the inspection!
Can this be another scar on the integrity of the horse industry?
Anyone ever encounter this practice? Surely this cannot be true. Would sales companies stand for this?
Some Inspectors Cherry Picking Good Horses?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Um. Sure they do. Farms have bills to pay all year long.. and a bird in the hand... I sold one earlier this year. Why would that affect the sales company's reputation (they are ALL so lily white already)? Why is that worse than buying the horse outside Keeneland before the sale? Or setting a higher price, getting the buyer to pay that, and cutting in for a piece from the seller? Or any other of the shenanigans that go on?
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
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Monmouth Matt
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If so, I don't think it ranks up with the sales kickbacks. As we know, the horses are always for sale. If the inspector can offer the owner what he/she values the horse at then all your doing is shifting the risk. Just like the inspectors, a private buyer can contact a farm and normally be invited to review and bid on inventory.
Just doesn't seem to be as deceitful as prearranged kickbacks and side deals.
Just doesn't seem to be as deceitful as prearranged kickbacks and side deals.
And DOWN the stretch they come!
The difference is critical. When a horse goes into the ring, I expect it (as a buyer) that the "action" is happening between me and the seller, and all the other potential buyers at the sale. The auction house (in my mind) should simply be the conduit to facilitate the best sale possible. That trust is broken if the auction house themselves have any interest in the animal in the ring.
Break it down. I have seen bidding going on, how is it that one horse starts calling with "do we have 200,000?" and the very next horse is "do i hear 50,000?". The difference should be interest, pedigree, perceived value and possibly reserve. If the auction house has an interest in the horse, the potential for deceptive practices goes up exponentially, they are the very agent used to sell the horses. From a buyers perspective, I want to know that the horse I am bidding on is being bought from the buyer represented, and that I didn't get "bird-dogged" by the auction house on the way to the sale, thereby assuring maximum markup and profit for the best horses.
As a seller, I would want to know that my horse has just as good a shot when it hits the ring as any other, and that the horses inthe sale are not slipped in and pushed separately by the auction house themselves.
There is so much deception going on, i know. But this would be a black mark on the sales practice as a whole.
To me, breeding and racing your own is becoming the only way to go in this business. Period.
Break it down. I have seen bidding going on, how is it that one horse starts calling with "do we have 200,000?" and the very next horse is "do i hear 50,000?". The difference should be interest, pedigree, perceived value and possibly reserve. If the auction house has an interest in the horse, the potential for deceptive practices goes up exponentially, they are the very agent used to sell the horses. From a buyers perspective, I want to know that the horse I am bidding on is being bought from the buyer represented, and that I didn't get "bird-dogged" by the auction house on the way to the sale, thereby assuring maximum markup and profit for the best horses.
As a seller, I would want to know that my horse has just as good a shot when it hits the ring as any other, and that the horses inthe sale are not slipped in and pushed separately by the auction house themselves.
There is so much deception going on, i know. But this would be a black mark on the sales practice as a whole.
To me, breeding and racing your own is becoming the only way to go in this business. Period.
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Monmouth Matt
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Aargh.. the lack of integrity in the world these days is so DISHEARTENING!
You are talking, I suppose, about the folks from Keeneland and Fasig Tipton that head out to look at those rarified individuals pointed toward the SELECT sales?
I wonder, though, if the sales company has permanent, salaried staff that does that, or do they hire an independent contractor-type, paid by the hour or the day, to render an opinion? The contractor-type might have more than one "daddy" in this scenario.. and might actually be looking at something that might be marginal in a Select sale. They might offer to help the farm sell the horse privately.
You are talking, I suppose, about the folks from Keeneland and Fasig Tipton that head out to look at those rarified individuals pointed toward the SELECT sales?
I wonder, though, if the sales company has permanent, salaried staff that does that, or do they hire an independent contractor-type, paid by the hour or the day, to render an opinion? The contractor-type might have more than one "daddy" in this scenario.. and might actually be looking at something that might be marginal in a Select sale. They might offer to help the farm sell the horse privately.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
s
What is disheartening and surprising, is that so many of us, as posted here for example, see nothing wrong with this practice.
The problem is, that if I go to a sale, I expect to see the best that has been nominated to the sale, not a group that has been picked over by someone in the employ of the sales company.
Maybe we get taken advantage of in this game because we are so willing to be.
The problem is, that if I go to a sale, I expect to see the best that has been nominated to the sale, not a group that has been picked over by someone in the employ of the sales company.
Maybe we get taken advantage of in this game because we are so willing to be.
Hmm. I didn't say I approve of the practice. I am relatively new to this industry. I just assumed, like all other businesses I have been involved in, that this one has its players and its game and it is the way it is.
Here is a hypothetical:
The problem with expectations at the sales is that the sales are so manipulated. A small breeder like me might have the best colt by XYZ stallion but if I'm not in the right "club" you might never be shown that colt. Instead, you are taken elsewhere and sold the horse they may have preselected for you to buy. They are getting you a colt by the stallion you wanted, and the seller hooked to that agent is getting the price they wanted, and the agent is making everyone happy.
End of hypothetical.
Being of a very wary nature, and coming from an industry where much worse than that went on, I, as a small breeder, am happy to sell my horses off the farm if I can. Drew feels disappointed because he believed that the best babies in the land are at the sales. The problem is that the sales were started as a venue where the farms could sell their culls, back in the days when the best bloodlines were protected like the gold in Fort Knox. Then breeding went through a metamorphosis and became an industry in itself. But you have people in the industry in various stages of that metamorphosis. Some, what I will call the "new" breed of agents, have standards and use standard commissions (like 5%) are out there. It disgruntles the old guard, used to making swooping amounts on a deal (25% or more). I've met one fellow, in particular, who tells me he wouldn't get out of bed for 5%. When I meet new people in this industry, I spend a lot of time listening. I ask questions. I let them show me their whole business model. That way I can elect to either do business with them--or not. But I never close any doors or burn any bridges. And it is not my job to re-educate or instigate change. That would be arrogant.
Here is a hypothetical:
The problem with expectations at the sales is that the sales are so manipulated. A small breeder like me might have the best colt by XYZ stallion but if I'm not in the right "club" you might never be shown that colt. Instead, you are taken elsewhere and sold the horse they may have preselected for you to buy. They are getting you a colt by the stallion you wanted, and the seller hooked to that agent is getting the price they wanted, and the agent is making everyone happy.
End of hypothetical.
Being of a very wary nature, and coming from an industry where much worse than that went on, I, as a small breeder, am happy to sell my horses off the farm if I can. Drew feels disappointed because he believed that the best babies in the land are at the sales. The problem is that the sales were started as a venue where the farms could sell their culls, back in the days when the best bloodlines were protected like the gold in Fort Knox. Then breeding went through a metamorphosis and became an industry in itself. But you have people in the industry in various stages of that metamorphosis. Some, what I will call the "new" breed of agents, have standards and use standard commissions (like 5%) are out there. It disgruntles the old guard, used to making swooping amounts on a deal (25% or more). I've met one fellow, in particular, who tells me he wouldn't get out of bed for 5%. When I meet new people in this industry, I spend a lot of time listening. I ask questions. I let them show me their whole business model. That way I can elect to either do business with them--or not. But I never close any doors or burn any bridges. And it is not my job to re-educate or instigate change. That would be arrogant.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
I guess I'm one of those unenlightened people who don't know what the problem is.
Inspectors are usually trainers or horsemen. If in their travels, they see a yearling they want to buy privately, bully for them. There's always another horse to buy and there are no guarantees with the most perfect specimen in the world that the horse can stay sound, has talent and/or is interested in being a racehorse.
The real problem ethically isn't when a horse is taken out of a sale from a purchase but when they stay in and are run up under false pretenses. Even then a wise bidder still has control of his own hand.
Inspectors are usually trainers or horsemen. If in their travels, they see a yearling they want to buy privately, bully for them. There's always another horse to buy and there are no guarantees with the most perfect specimen in the world that the horse can stay sound, has talent and/or is interested in being a racehorse.
The real problem ethically isn't when a horse is taken out of a sale from a purchase but when they stay in and are run up under false pretenses. Even then a wise bidder still has control of his own hand.
Select Sale
I don't have any first hand knowledge (besides having a few accepted and rejected to a select sale), but I have a cheap opinion!
A select sale is a selected group of horses from a larger group of horses that were nominated to go through the selection process. Selection criteria is always hotly debated by the smaller breeders, but once selected, the owner still has to enter the horse in the sale. If someone makes an owner an offer at any time before they enter, good for everyone. The owner of the horse at time of entry, should be the same as at sale time and should be transparent, but before the owner signs the contract it's a free market.
If a selector is contracted by the sales outfit (which is what I have seen, especially regionally) then I would say the sales company has it in their best interest to keep the shenanigans to a minimum as they will miss out on commissions for nice horses and get a bad rep. If they don't protect themselves and only have handshake deals with some guys to drive around to the farms, well they get what they deserve (cherry picking).
If someone is in the horse trading business, is a bit of a weasle, and can get a job where someone actually pays him to scout yearlings, AND they get to skim the odd one.... Well frankly good for him. Shame on the employer. Who gets harmed in a scenario like this?
1) The sales company (lost opportunity and they should protect themselves from people like this) and 2) the potential auction buyers. I have no sympathy for the auction buyers here though. An auction is not a silver platter. It ain't all served up for you. If someone doesn't have the time, energy or money to scout the farms before the sales, well then tough. Don't cry when someone was smart enough to get to your dream horse before you did. Why do big buyers scout yearlings in the spring? I assume to cherry pick the good ones before they get to the sales, or to get a heads up on those they'll be bidding on. Sounds like good business practice to me.
I would think that auction companies real customers are their consignors, not the buyers. And I have a sneaking suspicion that not all breeders would discourage presale negotiations from anyone.
I sometime wonder what the real life ratio of culls to prospects is in the sales? It probably varies widely.
I suspect that the real opportunity as an inspector would be that you could go to the nice farms and see some horses that aren't nominated to the sales, and have those as potential wheel and deal fodder....(maybe that's what's happening and being slightly misconstrued in the rumour mill?)
The select sale inspectors I have dealt with seem nice enough but you do get the impression, that being a little guy, there's a whole other game going on that I don't know anything about.
KH
A select sale is a selected group of horses from a larger group of horses that were nominated to go through the selection process. Selection criteria is always hotly debated by the smaller breeders, but once selected, the owner still has to enter the horse in the sale. If someone makes an owner an offer at any time before they enter, good for everyone. The owner of the horse at time of entry, should be the same as at sale time and should be transparent, but before the owner signs the contract it's a free market.
If a selector is contracted by the sales outfit (which is what I have seen, especially regionally) then I would say the sales company has it in their best interest to keep the shenanigans to a minimum as they will miss out on commissions for nice horses and get a bad rep. If they don't protect themselves and only have handshake deals with some guys to drive around to the farms, well they get what they deserve (cherry picking).
If someone is in the horse trading business, is a bit of a weasle, and can get a job where someone actually pays him to scout yearlings, AND they get to skim the odd one.... Well frankly good for him. Shame on the employer. Who gets harmed in a scenario like this?
1) The sales company (lost opportunity and they should protect themselves from people like this) and 2) the potential auction buyers. I have no sympathy for the auction buyers here though. An auction is not a silver platter. It ain't all served up for you. If someone doesn't have the time, energy or money to scout the farms before the sales, well then tough. Don't cry when someone was smart enough to get to your dream horse before you did. Why do big buyers scout yearlings in the spring? I assume to cherry pick the good ones before they get to the sales, or to get a heads up on those they'll be bidding on. Sounds like good business practice to me.
I would think that auction companies real customers are their consignors, not the buyers. And I have a sneaking suspicion that not all breeders would discourage presale negotiations from anyone.
I sometime wonder what the real life ratio of culls to prospects is in the sales? It probably varies widely.
I suspect that the real opportunity as an inspector would be that you could go to the nice farms and see some horses that aren't nominated to the sales, and have those as potential wheel and deal fodder....(maybe that's what's happening and being slightly misconstrued in the rumour mill?)
The select sale inspectors I have dealt with seem nice enough but you do get the impression, that being a little guy, there's a whole other game going on that I don't know anything about.
KH