Was there a legendary stud who had some semen frozen

[pfrsue]

I remember hearing vague rumors years ago that they were breeding Northern Dancer AI in his old age, but I doubt those rumors were credible. Certainly there'd be no point in freezing racehorse semen at this point, because even if the JC ever gets to the point where they'd recognize it, I doubt they'd do so retroactively.

I can't say I agree with Summerhorse about collecting from Barbaro. Why cause any more stress to the horse's system, and why keep him under anesthesia even a moment longer than necessary? For the possibility of a few three-day horses or a nice half-App? I just can't buy into that. (I've seen that method used with other livestock, and I can't believe that it doesn't leave them pretty sore in all sorts of unmentionable places.)

[gotpaints]

Thoroughbreds are one of the only breeds that don't allow AI. However, if breeding farms and mare owners thought it over they would probably be in favor of it. No more shuttling stallions all over the world to breed in different countries, no more shipping mares across the country to hope that she stays in foal when she gets home, ect. The American Paint Horse Association has been shipping to Brazil to the past few years instead of sending stallions down there. I'm a fan of AI because I'm breeding my mare to APHA stallion Tiny Who Too who is located in Texas and I'm up here in Washington. It's alot easier (and cheaper) just to do it all up here rather than ship my mare down there.

P.S. To the person who said horse semen doesn't freeze well... tell that to the breeders in other breeds who freeze semen and don't use it for 5+ years and get better results than live cover.

[Rokeby Forever]

I remember once in NY when I was outside and the windchill was 15 below zero....does that count?

[adrienne]

I remember once in NY when I was outside and the windchill was 15 below zero....does that count?

Were you naked?

[gotpaints]

I remember once in NY when I was outside and the windchill was 15 below zero....does that count?

Were you naked?

Knowing him I could see him naked out there.

[Rokeby Forever]

Shaddap you!

[Equipoise28]

I would think that a stallion manager would not want AI because you lose the ability to approve the mares. Once you ship the semen off, who knows where it goes? Considering that there are some crazy breeders out there (think Winloc's Millie), it seems like it would be a risk for someone trying to promote a stallion.

[krp]

I would really want to know more about the farm where Mokheiba stood at. I've heard some pretty horrible things there. It's hear say, take it with a grain of salt, but you might not be getting what you think.

[FOS]

hi pfrsue...hi all

I remember hearing vague rumors years ago that they were breeding Northern Dancer AI in his old age, but I doubt those rumors were credible.

Unless someone credible has/says something to substantiate the rumor...it'll remain nothing more than a rumor.

That said...it might be interesting to hear what some stallion managers and/or breeding-shed staff (including from farms where stallions are known to cover HUGE books) might have to say and/or might be willing to share.

Regardless...it wouldn't surprise me (would it surprise you?) if more than a couple of farm/breeding-shed staff/employees, and/or veterinarians etc have seen some things and/or kept some secrets (from the JC) that (if exposed) might send shockwaves (and possibly ignite an explosive uproar) throughout the thoroughbred breeding-world.

With that in mind...would it be unreasonable to suggest that that's a potential can of worms that the Jockey Club does NOT really want opened?

Hmmm.

Respectfully

[pfrsue]

That said...it might be interesting to hear what some stallion managers and/or breeding-shed staff (including from farms where stallions are known to cover HUGE books) might have to say and/or might be willing to share.

Regardless...it wouldn't surprise me (would it surprise you?) if more than a couple of farm/breeding-shed staff/employees, and/or veterinarians etc have seen some things and/or kept some secrets (from the JC) that (if exposed) might send shockwaves (and possibly ignite an explosive uproar) throughout the thoroughbred breeding-world.

It wouldn't surprise me, no. Bear in mind, I have no firsthand knowledge on specific cases, and as you say, FOS, rumors are just... rumors. I never meant to imply otherwise. It just seemed apropos to the discussion.

Having said that, I can see it making sense in a way. Take a stellar but older or otherwise compromised, not very spry - or even not very tall - stallion. Maybe that stallion would have problems jumping on a big ol' broodmare, but could more comfortably and safely use a phantom since they're adjustable for height. That's a scenario I could believe, and I'm not sure I would personally condemn it - especially if they only used one collection on one mare.

Just sayin'.

[nrhareiner]

Horse semen doesn't tolerate freezing very well. Freezing will kill all sperm cells after freezing of half the horses, the other half will lose at least half of the motility. Horse semen is not as durable as cattle or humans sperm. If you could find it, most likely it wouldn’t work.

Huh!! We use it all the time with our breeding program!! It works just fine......

On another note, plenty of TBs breed other TBs via frozen or fresh semen. Unfortunately, they are not able to be Jockey Club registered but many are registered elsewhere like the Performance Horse Registry or a Warmblood registry.

The biggest disadvantage of frozen semen today is the individual freezing variability; stallions vary in fertility with frozen semen. About 20-30% of stallions with normal semen quality will produce semen that freezes extremely well, another 40% produce semen that freezes modestly well and approximately 30% of those stallions don't freeze well at all.

Conception rates of artificial insemination with frozen semen are lower than with fresh semen, although with a good freezing technique and well managed mares, conception rates of 60-65% can be reached.
http://www.equinecentre.unimelb.edu.au/ ... o_ai.shtml

The percentages vary a little but the statement is valid. Cooled semen is another story with better results.

That article is 4 year's old!

One advantage of using frozen nowaday's is the fact that you have the semen on hand at the optium time for the mare. We've gone the cooled route and let me tell you, that was a pain in the tush!

As far a collecting thoroughbred's you'd have to teach them to use a phatom. I guess you could stuff an examining sleeve into the mare.

Just because the article is 4 years old does not make it any less accurate.
What if the stud that you want to use’ semen won’t hold up to freezing? Then what do you do? I did not say that you can’t freeze horse semen, just that it is less effective and in some cases impossible.
You don’t have to train a horse to a phantom to collect it. In fact most people collect on a mare because it is easier for them. When doing semen evaluations on young prospects, they are always collected on a mare. No one is going through phantom training for an evaluation.

Actaully frozen semen conception rates are much higher now then they where 4 years ago. The technology in extender has come a long way not to mention techniquie. The rate is just shy of what coolled is today. You just have to find the correct extender for each stallion. The stallions who do not freez well do not ship well with coolled semen either.

As for training a stallion. I run a stallion station and have many freinds who also run even larger stallion stations. It is not hard to teach a stallion to collect off a dummy. Also I would NEVER collect a stallion off a mare. The chance of getting hurt is too high even with the best stallion and mare. The idea is to make is as safe as posible and that is not safe for anyone.

Heidi

[casallc]

[quote="nrhareiner]

Actaully frozen semen conception rates are much higher now then they where 4 years ago. The technology in extender has come a long way not to mention techniquie. The rate is just shy of what coolled is today. You just have to find the correct extender for each stallion. The stallions who do not freez well do not ship well with coolled semen either.

As for training a stallion. I run a stallion station and have many freinds who also run even larger stallion stations. It is not hard to teach a stallion to collect off a dummy. Also I would NEVER collect a stallion off a mare. The chance of getting hurt is too high even with the best stallion and mare. The idea is to make is as safe as posible and that is not safe for anyone.

Heidi[/quote]

If the semen from a particular stud won't tolerate freezing it doesn't much matter what kind of extender you use. I have trained many horses to the phantom I know all about it. I also have done semen evaluations on many sale pre-purchase stallions and never once trained to the dummy. If there is not a mare in heat around a shot of estrogen and breeding hobbles or a side-line is used. I have probably been stepped on and clipped as many times off the dummy as off a mare. It’s not that big of a deal if you are using a seasoned receptive mare. I have bred in excess of 300 mares in a single season and stood as many as 9 studs in a season so I have a vague knowledge of what is involved.

[WAracefan]

I know of a very popular regional stallion who impregnated some of his mares via AI in his latter years. Straight from a guy who worked at the farm.

[nrhareiner]

Extender and techneques have come along way. Stallions who did not freez well 5 years ago now freez quite well. Same with cooled semen.

I have a stallion who 6 years ago when I started collecting him did not extend well in the extender I was using. He was 99% on collection but after extending and cooling at 12 hours he was down to about 50% and at 24 hours was down to 20%. I changed extender and now is still at 75% at 48 hours and 65% at 72 hours.

Again if you read what I wrote you would see that I stated stallions who do not cool well do not tend to freez well. However just about every top leval stallion (in breeds were it is allowed) offers frozen semen and they have little to no problem with it.

I too have a lode of experiance in breeding and collecting stallions and have yet to get steped on or kicked. Even with young inexperianced stallions. I have also collected stallions off the ground. Some do better that way although I prefer not to collect that way offten as you run into other prolems down the road.

There are many QH stallions who have been gone or not breeding sound who have frozen semen and the semen 10+ years latter are still getting mare infoal.

Like with anything you just keep trying new things as they come out and see if that works better then what you are useing now.

Heidi

[casallc]

Extender and techneques have come along way. Stallions who did not freez well 5 years ago now freez quite well. Same with cooled semen.

I have a stallion who 6 years ago when I started collecting him did not extend well in the extender I was using. He was 99% on collection but after extending and cooling at 12 hours he was down to about 50% and at 24 hours was down to 20%. I changed extender and now is still at 75% at 48 hours and 65% at 72 hours.

Again if you read what I wrote you would see that I stated stallions who do not cool well do not tend to freez well. However just about every top leval stallion (in breeds were it is allowed) offers frozen semen and they have little to no problem with it.

I too have a lode of experiance in breeding and collecting stallions and have yet to get steped on or kicked. Even with young inexperianced stallions. I have also collected stallions off the ground. Some do better that way although I prefer not to collect that way offten as you run into other prolems down the road.

There are many QH stallions who have been gone or not breeding sound who have frozen semen and the semen 10+ years latter are still getting mare infoal.

Like with anything you just keep trying new things as they come out and see if that works better then what you are useing now.

Heidi

If you've never been stepped on you are either quick, careful or not collecting. I used the Colorado AV because of the better quality of collection but the weight keeps you under the horse. I would collect 3 or 4 horses almost every other day through breeding season and I have been stepped on plenty. I have arthritis in my right foot from it today. You are either agile or lucky.