are these GREAT horses?

[geowarrior]

Isn't Gary Contessa just coming off a suspension? Is that what it was for?

[Rokeby Forever]

A filly got nailed postrace with a trace amount of Bute. She trained on it (before she was claimed) and not all of it washed out in time to race.

[Foggytrip]

New York. KY used to be day of, Day out now. I cant say Im up on cals medication rules but I know Lava's prerace in Cali is alot different than it is when he gets drilled in Dubai, NY, KY, and wherever else hes ran.

[Tucumcari]

What is withdrawl time for bute in New York?....anyone?

[Rokeby Forever]

Forty-eight hours, Tucumcari.

[Mac]

I would rate the others above Lava Man, but it does occur to me in all fairness to LM: could any of these other three at their very peak form beat Lava Man at his very peak form on his best surface? I am sure many would say that Invasor would clean Lava Man's clock on Lava Man's home court and possibly so would Ouija Board, but I am not so sure of that. Yes, I know Rags is only three and only has run on dirt, so the question really doesn't apply to her yet...

[bdw0617]

people are very short sighted.. lava man in his prime..w hich I consider to be 05, beat some VERY VERY game horses.

the only two BAD races he ran are outside the country when he was clearly overmatched. I don't consider 6th in the BC a disgrace.

looking at Rags from a handicapping perspective... she's a damn, damn good filly. any filly that can get a 107 in the Belmont and win under any cirsumstances.. but we are talking best of all time.. she's not in the same class as Ruffian yet. she beat 1 horse (I don't consider Hard spun in that upper tier) who had just came off running a mile and a quarter and a mile and 3/16 races in the last month.. and won by a headbob that if the line was 5 inches longer she would have lost.

If they both met again in say, September, Curlin would clean her clock I believe.. but that's not taking anything away from rags.. to have a filly that could even get in that same category as the boys is a once in a generation feat. Ouija Board and Makaybe Diva are in classes of their own..

[JimbleBrimble]

people are very short sighted.. lava man in his prime..w hich I consider to be 05, beat some VERY VERY game horses.

the only two BAD races he ran are outside the country when he was clearly overmatched. I don't consider 6th in the BC a disgrace.

Quite clearly the short-sighted one here ... is you.

You, like so many others, have a misguided self-importance that suggests to you alone that the "top 100 of all time" should consist mostly of horses who campaigned during your familiarity with racing.

No matter that racing has been in great decline over the past two decades, you still allow yourself to fantasize about these great champions roaming the earth only since you were first initiated to racing.

By your misguided math, any time you pick up a program at the gates of the Timonium fairgrounds or its like, there is a high statistical probability that at least three of (your perception of the) "top 100 of all time" will be on that day's card at Timonium.

Not only that, but your perception of the facts is considerably askew:


Lava Man has never run 6th in the Breeders' Cup. He did once run 6th in a claiming race, however.

Lava Man was also beaten 45 lengths at Belmont Park - not the Belmont Park in Australia - perhaps you didn't know what country that was in?

And for a horse in his so-called "prime", Lava Man won the sum total of two graded stakes in 2005, with one of those against a very weak field in a grade two event. He won three of nine that year.

You really should pay more attention to the subject matter when you start these absurd posts on topics where your bias renders you wholly incapable of clear thinking.

But thanks for your short-sightedness, it provides entertainment for others!

[RuffianT21]

JimbleBrimble- a little harsh, don't you think? I don't see where bdw was any less relying on facts than you. I don't see what evidence of "misguided perceptions" and let alone "misguided math" there was. Lava Man is at very least a very good horse. He's not a claimer at Timonium and I don't think anyone is saying that claimers at Timonium are in the Top 100.

Every decade through the 1900s had at least 15 excellent horses and 3-5 exceptional ones. Bdw was asking if Lava Man, Ouija Board, Invasor and Rags To Riches four of the top horses of this decade, deserve to be classified with the top 10 of each decade of the 1900s and thus top 100 of the century.

That's 4 horses, by no means more than were allotted to each decade of the 1900s, so I don't see how this is short-sighted or biased towards today's horses.

As for Lava Man, why are we assuming that 2005 was his prime? Doesn't ability, rather than age determine one's prime? I would say that Lava Man's prime was 2006, when he won 4 G1s, one of them on turf as well as 3 other stakes. That is a GOOD race record for a year, last time I checked.

I also wouldn't hold Lava Man's claiming performances against him, he has obviously improved immensely and now wins G1s. And yes, he finished 7th, not 6th in last year's Breeder's Cup Classic, but the point remains the same: it wasn't a disgrace.

I would say your post appealed to sensationalism as pathos much more than bdw's post did and your facts were equally skewed. Just my $0.02

[Rokeby Forever]

Now, now...be nice.

What bothers me is how people TRY to compare Lava Man to John Henry. I have to think that those people didn't see John Henry when he was in his prime - John Henry beat horses that would have handed Lava Man his head! Even having to put Lava Man in the same sentence with John Henry irritates me. Grrr!!!!

[Retrospectiv]

Easy Goer wasn't much outside of NY, either.

Please don't compare Easy Goer outside NY vs. Lava Man outside California.

The worst EG ever ran outside NY was 2nd. 2nd in the BC Juvy on a sloppy track, 2nd again in the Derby on yet again a sloppy CD's track, 2nd by a NOSE in the Preakness and 2nd again by a HEAD in the BC Classic to the horse who was HOTY. Easy Goer had actually run the fastest 7 furlongs of the Gulfstream meet in his 1st start of 1989 in the Swale Stakes. Guess 2nds in 4 Grade 1's ain't much..... Where has Lava Man finished in his races outside California??

And for the record, when Easy Goer ran a head 2nd in the Classic at Gulfstream, that was at the conclusion of a campaign that saw him win more Grade 1 races in a season than any other 3yr old male since Spectacular Bid in 1979. Not one single champion 3yr old male since Bid has won that many Grade 1's.

[Sam]

Easy Goer wasn't much outside of NY, either.

Please don't compare Easy Goer outside NY vs. Lava Man outside California.

The worst EG ever ran outside NY was 2nd.

The point is that he could not manage to WIN outside of New York. The knock against Lava Man is that he can't win outside of CA. If that is the statement being made, then he is no different than Easy Goer. Saying "but look at EG's record compared to LM's" is adding a condition to a pre-existing statement.

I don't hear people saying "He loses badly and finished last in every race", I hear "Lava Man can't win outside of CA." Well, "Easy Goer couldn't win outside of NY."

[Rokeby Forever]

Easy Goer wasn't much outside of NY, either.

Outside New York, EG lost to Sunday Silence, maybe the best horse since Affirmed. If Easy Goer faced horses like AP Xcellent (who can still run NW3) down the stretch, I think it's safe to say that he wouldn't have been all out to beat him, no matter where the race was run.

[zinn21]

I'm surprised Rags to Riches is getting so little respect. I would rate her right as one of the best in the last twenty years. She beat the boys going a mile and a half; a fete not accomplished in a hundred years. That pretty much seals the deal for me to rate her very high..

[amanda1]

Ouija Board: YES
Invasor: YES
Lava Man: NO
Rags To Riches: She's knocking on the door but isn't in yet!