http://www.rogerstein.com/archives/070624.wma
Now.. is she just full of it, or is she really not lying?
someone here is lying. she uses SA as a regular trianer.. we all know what he has done.
Interview with Maggi Moss
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bcassidy
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I think some owners use the arms length relationship with their trainers to their own advantage, they can use the abnormally high percentage trainers without knowing or really caring about the details of how it is being accomplished. Their motto could be----Be careful what you go looking for----you might not like what you find!
Does anyone really believe that a trainer with a 24% win rate is really that much better than all the other 10-18% trainers?
One of the first questions most people discuss when speaking about a trainer is his/her win %. When this is the first thing that people want to discuss when thinking about trainers, is it any wonder that some trainers will go to any length to get that elusive edge? I know I have been guilty of the same double standard-----aplauding these super high% trainers while unintentionally thinking less of the rank and file professionals. The pressure is on to perform and everyone wants to get the owners who get the best stock----these owners usually go to the highest percentage trainers. In each of these cases, these owners don't want to dig to deep and if a problem should arise with one of the "in-trainers" they are off to the next guy as soon as trouble shows up. As an owner myself this sounds horrific to suggest but maybe the solution should be to put the purse money for the owner at risk if the horse is found to have anything illegal in their system. This might make the average owner more careful in their trainer selection process and instead of asking what the trainers win % is first maybe the owner would focus more on how the trainer accomplishes his/her results. A little more scrutiny might be just what the doctor ordered. Something to think about?
Does anyone really believe that a trainer with a 24% win rate is really that much better than all the other 10-18% trainers?
One of the first questions most people discuss when speaking about a trainer is his/her win %. When this is the first thing that people want to discuss when thinking about trainers, is it any wonder that some trainers will go to any length to get that elusive edge? I know I have been guilty of the same double standard-----aplauding these super high% trainers while unintentionally thinking less of the rank and file professionals. The pressure is on to perform and everyone wants to get the owners who get the best stock----these owners usually go to the highest percentage trainers. In each of these cases, these owners don't want to dig to deep and if a problem should arise with one of the "in-trainers" they are off to the next guy as soon as trouble shows up. As an owner myself this sounds horrific to suggest but maybe the solution should be to put the purse money for the owner at risk if the horse is found to have anything illegal in their system. This might make the average owner more careful in their trainer selection process and instead of asking what the trainers win % is first maybe the owner would focus more on how the trainer accomplishes his/her results. A little more scrutiny might be just what the doctor ordered. Something to think about?
best regards Brendan
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bdw0617
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it's kina like the "wow' theory. say I win 100 million tomorrow. I want to buy some horses, I know NOTHING about horse racing. What do I do?
I find out who wins the most races.. Pletcher & SA, and let them have my horses.
I think people who have been around the game for an extended amo unt of time and who actually care for the horses, know what they are looking for, steer clear for the most part. Tabor seems to have a good relationship with him, but still.. when you are getting Scat DAddy, Circular Quay and Rags to Riches.. it's not much you have to do."Go"
If Tabor left right now and tranfserred his barn, Pletcher would be out on shed row. Tabor accounted for 4/7 of his triple crown calibur horses this year. Starlight Stable for 2 of the other 3 (Octave and I think Sam P)
that's why you see the shuffle board go on the way it does between trianres.. it's whoever the "big time" owners thinks is hot.. it's all about perception. there was a time when you couldn't touch Bobby Frankel with a 10 foot pole with all the Juddmount stock he was getting.. now he isn't getting them and when is the last time you seen him on the derby/ Breeder's Cup trail? and he actually is a VERY good trainer! Besides not calling clients back and possibly telling juddmount to "$$$$ off, I can handle this", what could he have possibly done?
On Steive Boy? never, NEVER been THAt impressed. he's not a bad trainer. I won't say that. But he is a Texas/ mid west trainer who hooked u with Moss (who is the nations leading trainer, 5k claimer at at time) and now Jess Jackson and company.
I look for trainers.. Dutrow.. who took a Saint Liem, who was a TRUE allowence NW2X horse, and turned him, with good training.. until a Breeder's Cup winner.
I pay attention to when the Princes come over here, who do they pick up. They only mess with the best. ONLY. Aden' O'Brien in England and Karen Mclaughlin here. Both can train a horse to drive if they wanted.
Look at a trainer like Ted West Out in California.. took 2 claimers and came in 2nd in the BC Classic with one and did something big with the other, I forgot what. name once, in pletcher's/ Lukas/Baffert/SA's career did they do anything remotely close to that
I find out who wins the most races.. Pletcher & SA, and let them have my horses.
I think people who have been around the game for an extended amo unt of time and who actually care for the horses, know what they are looking for, steer clear for the most part. Tabor seems to have a good relationship with him, but still.. when you are getting Scat DAddy, Circular Quay and Rags to Riches.. it's not much you have to do."Go"
If Tabor left right now and tranfserred his barn, Pletcher would be out on shed row. Tabor accounted for 4/7 of his triple crown calibur horses this year. Starlight Stable for 2 of the other 3 (Octave and I think Sam P)
that's why you see the shuffle board go on the way it does between trianres.. it's whoever the "big time" owners thinks is hot.. it's all about perception. there was a time when you couldn't touch Bobby Frankel with a 10 foot pole with all the Juddmount stock he was getting.. now he isn't getting them and when is the last time you seen him on the derby/ Breeder's Cup trail? and he actually is a VERY good trainer! Besides not calling clients back and possibly telling juddmount to "$$$$ off, I can handle this", what could he have possibly done?
On Steive Boy? never, NEVER been THAt impressed. he's not a bad trainer. I won't say that. But he is a Texas/ mid west trainer who hooked u with Moss (who is the nations leading trainer, 5k claimer at at time) and now Jess Jackson and company.
I look for trainers.. Dutrow.. who took a Saint Liem, who was a TRUE allowence NW2X horse, and turned him, with good training.. until a Breeder's Cup winner.
I pay attention to when the Princes come over here, who do they pick up. They only mess with the best. ONLY. Aden' O'Brien in England and Karen Mclaughlin here. Both can train a horse to drive if they wanted.
Look at a trainer like Ted West Out in California.. took 2 claimers and came in 2nd in the BC Classic with one and did something big with the other, I forgot what. name once, in pletcher's/ Lukas/Baffert/SA's career did they do anything remotely close to that
You havent heard as much from Frankel since they have scrutinized his prerace treatment. Has nothing to do with Adena leaving him, has to do with him not being able to train/prerace how he used to. He still has some very good clients (less Gann), he still scratches more than anyone in the game, hes still a good trainer.
Amoss is a good trainer, and Maggi knows what shes doing. Maggi is probably one of the shrewdest people Ive come In contact with in this game. Very nice, very kind, but very much knows what she wants, and very good at selecting horses and spoting horses to win without taking a loss. A tribute to her entire team.
Todd simply lays over his peers. His work ethic, business practices, intelligence, horsemanship, everything. These other megastables that win a lot of races function at 50% the efficency of Todd's stable. Hes just that much better than almost everyone.
Dutrow is notorious for alot of things besides winning races. Although he is a master horseman.
Oneill, I have no opinion on.
Kieran is not only a great guy, hes a great trainer. Class act from shoe tip, to hair clip. You wont find many people who would say a bad word about him
Amoss is a good trainer, and Maggi knows what shes doing. Maggi is probably one of the shrewdest people Ive come In contact with in this game. Very nice, very kind, but very much knows what she wants, and very good at selecting horses and spoting horses to win without taking a loss. A tribute to her entire team.
Todd simply lays over his peers. His work ethic, business practices, intelligence, horsemanship, everything. These other megastables that win a lot of races function at 50% the efficency of Todd's stable. Hes just that much better than almost everyone.
Dutrow is notorious for alot of things besides winning races. Although he is a master horseman.
Oneill, I have no opinion on.
Kieran is not only a great guy, hes a great trainer. Class act from shoe tip, to hair clip. You wont find many people who would say a bad word about him
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bdw0617
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when pletcher can manage a champion older horse, I will give him credit. until then, he is a product of the best horse flesh money can buy, regardless of how "great" his work ethic is, which I believe. I bet all lukas decednants get up at 3am and head tot he track.
What Mandalla, West, Frankel, Jerkins and others have done in comparision with alot less to work with overall.
What Mandalla, West, Frankel, Jerkins and others have done in comparision with alot less to work with overall.
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Rokeby Forever
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At this point, Todd Pletcher couldn't shine Allen Jerkens' shoes. Ask yourself if Pletcher would have won the Suburban with Political Force, or if PF would have wound up as a wash-up like Sunriver in the Pletcher barn.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
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bdw0617
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you are missing the point foggy.
I never said pletch was a BAD trainer. God no. It's not like people just picked a bum out of the back stretch and said "here.. here's 5 million, go buy some horses"
obviously the man has talent. alot of it. and yes, he is ahead of the majority of the trainers in the country.
BUT
there isn't one meet, with the possibly exception of the Arlington meet that he is the best trainer on the circuit. Out in Cali, he's not as good of a horseman than Frankel or McAnally and some would argue West and Madella.
Is he REALLY that much better a trainer than szy, Nick Zito? Actually I would say so but you get my point. Pletch is this weeks flavor of the month.
In Florida he's not better than Karien and in NY he's not better than Frankel or Jerkins.. Dutrow..blah.. it's a coin toss.
He's WAAAAY better a trainer than SA. I'll even admit that.
'
let me ask you this. in their PRIME who would you give a horse two all things being equal.. Pletch or Lukas?
As much as I BASH lukas, I wouldn't even blink twice if thoose were my two options. Lukas won the KD with a FILLY! Yes pletch won the Belmont with a filly. Lukas did it with all types of horses (Eventually), not just 2-3 year olds.
right now pletch seems to have a knack for young fillies and young horses in general.
Is he someone you take a horse say....Lava Man, with the layoffs and what not and get him to run at his peak performance? no.
Is he a guy who you take a horse like Best Pal, who had feet problems his entire career, and get him primed and ready to go full throttle every time out? no.
Is he a guy who can take a horse like Ghostzapper and get him to fire 5 consecutive 120 or higher beyers at different distances and then have him go full tilt in the BC Classic, THEN come back and win the Met mile the next year in a rump? don't think so.
Pletcher is great because ESPN says he's great. And that's fine for me. but when I get my horses, I won't be looking his way.. and that's no slight against him, he's made his mark and a good one, but there are better trainers.
Right now I don't think there is a better trainer in this continent than Karien. No one would have done what he did ith Invasor. then he took a horse who I used to crack jokes about, Flashy Bull, and turn he is on the EXACT same improvement path as Invasor was last year! he's won 4 straight! Takes a horse like Jazil and spots him in gRADE1 's he can win. He can get a horse to go early, he can settle a horse, sprints, grass, doesn't matter. But because he does business with the terrorists people, most people don't like him.
I never said pletch was a BAD trainer. God no. It's not like people just picked a bum out of the back stretch and said "here.. here's 5 million, go buy some horses"
obviously the man has talent. alot of it. and yes, he is ahead of the majority of the trainers in the country.
BUT
there isn't one meet, with the possibly exception of the Arlington meet that he is the best trainer on the circuit. Out in Cali, he's not as good of a horseman than Frankel or McAnally and some would argue West and Madella.
Is he REALLY that much better a trainer than szy, Nick Zito? Actually I would say so but you get my point. Pletch is this weeks flavor of the month.
In Florida he's not better than Karien and in NY he's not better than Frankel or Jerkins.. Dutrow..blah.. it's a coin toss.
He's WAAAAY better a trainer than SA. I'll even admit that.
'
let me ask you this. in their PRIME who would you give a horse two all things being equal.. Pletch or Lukas?
As much as I BASH lukas, I wouldn't even blink twice if thoose were my two options. Lukas won the KD with a FILLY! Yes pletch won the Belmont with a filly. Lukas did it with all types of horses (Eventually), not just 2-3 year olds.
right now pletch seems to have a knack for young fillies and young horses in general.
Is he someone you take a horse say....Lava Man, with the layoffs and what not and get him to run at his peak performance? no.
Is he a guy who you take a horse like Best Pal, who had feet problems his entire career, and get him primed and ready to go full throttle every time out? no.
Is he a guy who can take a horse like Ghostzapper and get him to fire 5 consecutive 120 or higher beyers at different distances and then have him go full tilt in the BC Classic, THEN come back and win the Met mile the next year in a rump? don't think so.
Pletcher is great because ESPN says he's great. And that's fine for me. but when I get my horses, I won't be looking his way.. and that's no slight against him, he's made his mark and a good one, but there are better trainers.
Right now I don't think there is a better trainer in this continent than Karien. No one would have done what he did ith Invasor. then he took a horse who I used to crack jokes about, Flashy Bull, and turn he is on the EXACT same improvement path as Invasor was last year! he's won 4 straight! Takes a horse like Jazil and spots him in gRADE1 's he can win. He can get a horse to go early, he can settle a horse, sprints, grass, doesn't matter. But because he does business with the terrorists people, most people don't like him.
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bdw0617
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Foggytrip wrote:Jerkens one of the very very very few who could probably teach Todd something
BDW, despite what you want to believe the guy is light years ahead of 99% of all trainers in the game. Its very hard to have a "CHAMPION" older horse when you run them into the ground by the middle of their 3YO season.
fixed it for ya
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Rokeby Forever
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First let me address the Wayne Lukas question. "who would I send a horse to" I wouldnt send any horse to Wayne Lukas at any point in time. As much as I respect what hes done in the game, he simply trains too hard for my liking. Hes a very nice man, and hes a very good trainer. That being said it would be 1/9 my horse would go to Pletcher between those two.
Is he really that much better of a trainer than Nick Zito, yeah he really is. They arent in the same zipcode.
As far as a horsemen, is he better than Frankel? Frankel wont even go in the stall with a horse, hes scared to death.
Kieran is a magnificent trainer and I wouldnt argue that hes as close to Pletcher as anyone whos not already a legend
Would Todd get Lavaman to run? I would say Lava Man would have been basically the same horse he has been with O'neill. If the horse were in NY, I think Todd would have won real grade 1 races with him.
Ghostzapper would have probably ran 120 with my grandma training him, he was an extreme talent.
The only person at ESPN that has a clue about horseracing is Randy Moss. Im sure Randy moss has spoke with Todd in person, and Im sure hes left with the same feeling most people leave with. No wonder the guy is so successful, I think that would be an accross the board opinion of him in the industry
Any horse you have named would have been as good of a horse, if not a better horse had Todd trained them. There isnt one guy he would back one up on, zero. He is the at the apex of this game, hes simply much better than any name that can possibly be dropped other than legends. When Todd is done he will be the trainer others are measured against, that is if hes not already
Rock, I think Todd can hold one together as well as these fragile creatures can be held together. We arent dealing with old school grooms, great trainers, and hickory horses anymore. We are dealing with new drugs, mediocre grooms, and very fragile animals.
There should be a new name mentioned in the DRF, that name should be of the attending vet each trainer use. I think that would be very helpful to players
Is he really that much better of a trainer than Nick Zito, yeah he really is. They arent in the same zipcode.
As far as a horsemen, is he better than Frankel? Frankel wont even go in the stall with a horse, hes scared to death.
Kieran is a magnificent trainer and I wouldnt argue that hes as close to Pletcher as anyone whos not already a legend
Would Todd get Lavaman to run? I would say Lava Man would have been basically the same horse he has been with O'neill. If the horse were in NY, I think Todd would have won real grade 1 races with him.
Ghostzapper would have probably ran 120 with my grandma training him, he was an extreme talent.
The only person at ESPN that has a clue about horseracing is Randy Moss. Im sure Randy moss has spoke with Todd in person, and Im sure hes left with the same feeling most people leave with. No wonder the guy is so successful, I think that would be an accross the board opinion of him in the industry
Any horse you have named would have been as good of a horse, if not a better horse had Todd trained them. There isnt one guy he would back one up on, zero. He is the at the apex of this game, hes simply much better than any name that can possibly be dropped other than legends. When Todd is done he will be the trainer others are measured against, that is if hes not already
Rock, I think Todd can hold one together as well as these fragile creatures can be held together. We arent dealing with old school grooms, great trainers, and hickory horses anymore. We are dealing with new drugs, mediocre grooms, and very fragile animals.
There should be a new name mentioned in the DRF, that name should be of the attending vet each trainer use. I think that would be very helpful to players
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Rokeby Forever
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C'mon Foggy, don't be Lost In The Fog!
Two years ago, Pletcher won 23 two year old maiden races at Saratoga. Name me five still in training. Did they ALL get shuttled off to stud?
Everyone works with the same material, but do you hear of Bill Mott stock getting hurt all the time (as an example)? If anything, Pletcher has access to more specialists that that can help him keep a horse together. Didn't seem to help with Scat Daddy, though - did it? Training him in bar shoes and racing him in plates might explain why - hmmmm?
Have a good weekend, Fog!
Two years ago, Pletcher won 23 two year old maiden races at Saratoga. Name me five still in training. Did they ALL get shuttled off to stud?
Everyone works with the same material, but do you hear of Bill Mott stock getting hurt all the time (as an example)? If anything, Pletcher has access to more specialists that that can help him keep a horse together. Didn't seem to help with Scat Daddy, though - did it? Training him in bar shoes and racing him in plates might explain why - hmmmm?
Have a good weekend, Fog!