hi guys
Songandaprayer has been known to sire some very handsome individuals. Songandaprayer has also been known to sire some very speedy individuals.
That said...it was arguably no surprise that the young sire was quickly moved from Florida to Kentucky, after his initial/early success as a sire of 2-yo racehorses.
Songandaprayer's stud fee rocketed from $10,000 (his last advertised fee in Florida) to $35,000 (his advertised stud fee for 2006, in Ky) which was bumped again to $45,000 (as advertised for 2007), but...
...it seems that I'm hearing many (including former supporters of his) raising questions/concerns/doubts re Songandaprayer's ability (or lack thereof) in getting much (at least thus far) in the way of quality two-turn runners.
Thoughts?
Respectfully
Songandaprayer - is he much more than a sprint sire?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Songandaprayer has a pedigree that is certainly geared toward speed and middle distances, but I think with the right broodmare sire under him, he can get a good two-turn horse.
I think it's always fair to give a stallion that moves from Florida to Kentucky some lee-way in that department. Most of the Florida breeding population is speed oriented which would mean most the foals that are currently running are as well.
I think it's always fair to give a stallion that moves from Florida to Kentucky some lee-way in that department. Most of the Florida breeding population is speed oriented which would mean most the foals that are currently running are as well.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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Rokeby Forever
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When donkeys fly, Maven. If you want to breed him to a St Jovite three mile plodder, maybe you'll get a two turn horse by him, but the horse might not be any faster than Mr Ed.
I don't know why there's a stigma attached to being a "speed sire." The vast majority of races in this country consist of sprints, and a good sprinter can certainly make a lot of $$$.
I don't know why there's a stigma attached to being a "speed sire." The vast majority of races in this country consist of sprints, and a good sprinter can certainly make a lot of $$$.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
Rokeby Forever wrote:When donkeys fly, Maven. If you want to breed him to a St Jovite three mile plodder, maybe you'll get a two turn horse by him, but the horse might not be any faster than Mr Ed.
I don't know why there's a stigma attached to being a "speed sire." The vast majority of races in this country consist of sprints, and a good sprinter can certainly make a lot of $$$.
Im not sure there is a stigma against speed... quite the opposite. With that said, having a speed stallion on top anchored by a stamina filled female family has proven to be effective in two turn races time and time again. How you can rule this out with this particular stallion is beyond me.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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Rokeby Forever
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Maven...are you saying that Officer fits into that category, as well? Would you look for Chapel Royal to sire two turn horses? Or Proud Accolade?
I think the "speed sire" that could carry his speed a distance when he raced is MUCH more likely to sire a 2 turn horse - Seattle Slew being a perfect example, with In Excess being another (when they stay sound enough to run two turns). I think Smarty Jones may well turn out to sire two turn speed sire because he could stretch out.
Mr P was a freak, and that's all there is to it.
I think the "speed sire" that could carry his speed a distance when he raced is MUCH more likely to sire a 2 turn horse - Seattle Slew being a perfect example, with In Excess being another (when they stay sound enough to run two turns). I think Smarty Jones may well turn out to sire two turn speed sire because he could stretch out.
Mr P was a freak, and that's all there is to it.
hi Maven
Fair enough...but, arguably (and respectfully of course) so could the teaser.
On the surface, that sounds quite reasonable, but...(hold that thought)...
...(thought cont'd) seems to me (after a quick glance at some old yearling sales catalogues from '04 and '05, and 2-yo-in-training sales catalogues from '05 and '06) that Songandaprayer has many foals (which would now be 3 or 4-yos of 2007) from mares by sires that arguably could (and/or should) offer the kind of stamina necessary to get a quality two-turn horse.
Examples: first dam's of many of the Songandaprayers from the crops referenced above were by the likes of Rahy, Affirmed, Blushing John, With Approval, Slew o' Gold, Sky Classic, Red Ransom, Shahrastani, Frosty the Snowman, Silver Deputy, For the Moment, Icecapade, Fly Till Dawn, Eternal Prince, Tabasco Cat, Storm Bird, Noble Saint, General Assembly etc etc etc.
That might be a reason why (when the topic of young sires is open for discussion) I'm hearing many voice concerns/questions/doubts pertaining to Songandaprayer and his ability (or lack thereof) to get quality two-turn racehorses.
Best to you.
Respectfully
Maven wrote:Songandaprayer has a pedigree that is certainly geared toward speed and middle distances, but I think with the right broodmare sire under him, he can get a good two-turn horse.
Fair enough...but, arguably (and respectfully of course) so could the teaser.
Maven wrote:I think it's always fair to give a stallion that moves from Florida to Kentucky some lee-way in that department.
On the surface, that sounds quite reasonable, but...(hold that thought)...
Maven wrote:Most of the Florida breeding population is speed oriented which would mean most the foals that are currently running are as well.
...(thought cont'd) seems to me (after a quick glance at some old yearling sales catalogues from '04 and '05, and 2-yo-in-training sales catalogues from '05 and '06) that Songandaprayer has many foals (which would now be 3 or 4-yos of 2007) from mares by sires that arguably could (and/or should) offer the kind of stamina necessary to get a quality two-turn horse.
Examples: first dam's of many of the Songandaprayers from the crops referenced above were by the likes of Rahy, Affirmed, Blushing John, With Approval, Slew o' Gold, Sky Classic, Red Ransom, Shahrastani, Frosty the Snowman, Silver Deputy, For the Moment, Icecapade, Fly Till Dawn, Eternal Prince, Tabasco Cat, Storm Bird, Noble Saint, General Assembly etc etc etc.
That might be a reason why (when the topic of young sires is open for discussion) I'm hearing many voice concerns/questions/doubts pertaining to Songandaprayer and his ability (or lack thereof) to get quality two-turn racehorses.
Best to you.
Respectfully
hi Maven
Hello FOS
Maven wrote:Songandaprayer has a pedigree that is certainly geared toward speed and middle distances, but I think with the right broodmare sire under him, he can get a good two-turn horse.
Fair enough...but, arguably (and respectfully of course) so could the teaser.
Then what's the point of this topic? If stamina is on the bottom side, then the speed can go farther on top. I dont see why Songandaprayer is any different?
Maven wrote:I think it's always fair to give a stallion that moves from Florida to Kentucky some lee-way in that department.
On the surface, that sounds quite reasonable, but...(hold that thought)...
Holding, love...
Maven wrote:Most of the Florida breeding population is speed oriented which would mean most the foals that are currently running are as well.
...(thought cont'd) seems to me (after a quick glance at some old yearling sales catalogues from '04 and '05, and 2-yo-in-training sales catalogues from '05 and '06) that Songandaprayer has many foals (which would now be 3 or 4-yos of 2007) from mares by sires that arguably could (and/or should) offer the kind of stamina necessary to get a quality two-turn horse.
Examples: first dam's of many of the Songandaprayers from the crops referenced above were by the likes of Rahy, Affirmed, Blushing John, With Approval, Slew o' Gold, Sky Classic, Red Ransom, Shahrastani, Frosty the Snowman, Silver Deputy, For the Moment, Icecapade, Fly Till Dawn, Eternal Prince, Tabasco Cat, Storm Bird, Noble Saint, General Assembly etc etc etc.
Well, just from your listings, Jack Junior (out of a Rahy mare) was 2nd in the 9f UAE Derby, Golden Silk (out of a Sharpen Up mare) has been competitive between 8-9f, Praying for Cash (out of a West By West mare) has been competitive at 8 and 9f.
This is one of those things where each horse needs to be looked at on an individual basis, not on the average numbers, at least at this point.
That might be a reason why (when the topic of young sires is open for discussion) I'm hearing many voice concerns/questions/doubts pertaining to Songandaprayer and his ability (or lack thereof) to get quality two-turn racehorses.
Best to you.
Respectfully
I dont really have much of an opinion, one way or another. But I do think, if recent history tells us anything, it's that a speed sire on top can still be competitive in two turn races with the type of horses we have today.
Im also very surprised people are complaining about the Songandaprayer's not staying. The whole draw to that horse, and the reason he fit so well in the Florida market, was his blazing speed.
Regardless, his pedigree is a nice combination of speed and intermediate sources. I cant imagine him NOT getting a two turn horse with the right dam line. And from what I can see, he's already gotten a few that are competitive at stake level at over a mile.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
hello Maven
Reality is, he didn't receive much in the way of outside support during his early years at stud. Apparently many thought (among other things) that $10k was too much for him. At one point (in an attempt to boost his appeal) the farm where he stood even offered...breed 2 get 1 free. Not a bad thing...just the way it was. Point is that he really wasn't much of a draw UNTIL a number of his offspring sold well; followed by his early first-crop 2-yo successes(at the races).
His last season in Florida, Songandaprayer was moved to Hartley DeRenzo...where he attracted a HUGE book (while his first crop raced).
When he moved to Ky, it was on the heels of a lot of early sizzle...which included a couple of speedy stakes winners, one of which was the highly thought of but ill-fated What a Song.
Many (that I am aware of) felt that the Songandaprayers would go on and win top stakes going two-turns...but, I hear many of those same people NOW expressing/raising concerns/doubts/questions pertaining to Songandaprayer's ability (or lack thereof) to get quality two-turn racehorses.
Understandably some breeders are squirming a bit, now...after all, many of them took a chance (using Songandaprayer) at both the $35k stud fee level and the $45k level...and are apparently not totally comfortable with how things appear to be unfolding. Is what was the early sizzle now barely flickering?
For what it's worth (and I sense it might be key to the concerns/questions/doubts that I'm hearing), it seems (to me anyway) that Songandaprayer is (physically) much less like his sire (Unbridled's Song) than he is like his dam's sire, Premiership.
Premiership (as you might recall) was a thick, heavily muscled bay/brown horse, with a powerhouse of a forearm, gaskin and hindquarters...and he didn't have a whole lot of leg under him. Arguably that might be fuel for concerns/questions/doubts (or at least food for thought) re Songandaprayer...since Songandaprayer is arguably (physically) more like his dam's sire (Premiership) than his sire (Unbridled's Song)...and Premiership himself was arguably more known for his sprinters than top-class two-turn racehorses. Hmmm.
With that in mind, I ask...doesn't it seem like Songandaprayer sires more the Premiership-type than the Unbridled's Song-type? If so, that too might fuel questions/concerns/doubts (when it comes to considering the prospects for Songandaprayer's success [or lack therof] as a sire of top-class two-turn winners).
Songandaprayer might be just fine...but I'm sensing that if winning going two-turns at the highest level is the goal...it might be wise (when selecting a mare for him) to consider the possibility of breeding a longer and/or leggier and/or leaner-type...(that's maybe by a sire that's likely to offer some stamina too) to Songandaprayer.
Whatta ya think?
Best.
Respectfully
Maven wrote:Im also very surprised people are complaining about the Songandaprayer's not staying. The whole draw to that horse (Songandaprayer), and the reason he fit so well in the Florida market, was his blazing speed.
Reality is, he didn't receive much in the way of outside support during his early years at stud. Apparently many thought (among other things) that $10k was too much for him. At one point (in an attempt to boost his appeal) the farm where he stood even offered...breed 2 get 1 free. Not a bad thing...just the way it was. Point is that he really wasn't much of a draw UNTIL a number of his offspring sold well; followed by his early first-crop 2-yo successes(at the races).
His last season in Florida, Songandaprayer was moved to Hartley DeRenzo...where he attracted a HUGE book (while his first crop raced).
When he moved to Ky, it was on the heels of a lot of early sizzle...which included a couple of speedy stakes winners, one of which was the highly thought of but ill-fated What a Song.
Many (that I am aware of) felt that the Songandaprayers would go on and win top stakes going two-turns...but, I hear many of those same people NOW expressing/raising concerns/doubts/questions pertaining to Songandaprayer's ability (or lack thereof) to get quality two-turn racehorses.
Understandably some breeders are squirming a bit, now...after all, many of them took a chance (using Songandaprayer) at both the $35k stud fee level and the $45k level...and are apparently not totally comfortable with how things appear to be unfolding. Is what was the early sizzle now barely flickering?
For what it's worth (and I sense it might be key to the concerns/questions/doubts that I'm hearing), it seems (to me anyway) that Songandaprayer is (physically) much less like his sire (Unbridled's Song) than he is like his dam's sire, Premiership.
Premiership (as you might recall) was a thick, heavily muscled bay/brown horse, with a powerhouse of a forearm, gaskin and hindquarters...and he didn't have a whole lot of leg under him. Arguably that might be fuel for concerns/questions/doubts (or at least food for thought) re Songandaprayer...since Songandaprayer is arguably (physically) more like his dam's sire (Premiership) than his sire (Unbridled's Song)...and Premiership himself was arguably more known for his sprinters than top-class two-turn racehorses. Hmmm.
With that in mind, I ask...doesn't it seem like Songandaprayer sires more the Premiership-type than the Unbridled's Song-type? If so, that too might fuel questions/concerns/doubts (when it comes to considering the prospects for Songandaprayer's success [or lack therof] as a sire of top-class two-turn winners).
Songandaprayer might be just fine...but I'm sensing that if winning going two-turns at the highest level is the goal...it might be wise (when selecting a mare for him) to consider the possibility of breeding a longer and/or leggier and/or leaner-type...(that's maybe by a sire that's likely to offer some stamina too) to Songandaprayer.
Whatta ya think?
Best.
Respectfully
Last edited by FOS on Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
I never saw Premiership so i'll take your word for it that he was built for speed.
With that said, you would think those same people "talking" and having "concern" would have used some common sense and conformation knowledge to notice that Songandaprayer was built very much like a speed horse. His race record and times would have also been a big sign to that.
But again, he's getting some competitive horses over a mile in stakes races when he's bred to stamina or versatile broodmare sires.
I really dont see what the gripe is, other than he's over-priced at the moment. But no one is forcing people to sign on the dotted line. I dont see him being advertised as a Classic-type stallion, nor have I ever heard him advertised as such.
IF there is concerns by people who bred to him, maybe they need to re-evaluate what they THINK they know before signing another contract.
They took a chance, just like every other breeder does. And if you ask me, I think the majority bred for the auction ring where a precocious looking individual sells more, which would mean a two turn horse, wasn't the priority.
And by the way, with your "it might be wise (when selecting a mare for him) to consider the possibility of breeding a longer and/or leggier and/or leaner-type...(that's maybe by a sire that's likely to offer some stamina too) to Songandaprayer.", that statement would be true for a great number of Kentucky and Florida stallions. We have a speed saturated stallion market. Again, common sense 101.
With that said, you would think those same people "talking" and having "concern" would have used some common sense and conformation knowledge to notice that Songandaprayer was built very much like a speed horse. His race record and times would have also been a big sign to that.
But again, he's getting some competitive horses over a mile in stakes races when he's bred to stamina or versatile broodmare sires.
I really dont see what the gripe is, other than he's over-priced at the moment. But no one is forcing people to sign on the dotted line. I dont see him being advertised as a Classic-type stallion, nor have I ever heard him advertised as such.
IF there is concerns by people who bred to him, maybe they need to re-evaluate what they THINK they know before signing another contract.
They took a chance, just like every other breeder does. And if you ask me, I think the majority bred for the auction ring where a precocious looking individual sells more, which would mean a two turn horse, wasn't the priority.
And by the way, with your "it might be wise (when selecting a mare for him) to consider the possibility of breeding a longer and/or leggier and/or leaner-type...(that's maybe by a sire that's likely to offer some stamina too) to Songandaprayer.", that statement would be true for a great number of Kentucky and Florida stallions. We have a speed saturated stallion market. Again, common sense 101.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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bdw0617
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Rokeby Forever wrote:Maven...are you saying that Officer fits into that category, as well? Would you look for Chapel Royal to sire two turn horses? Or Proud Accolade?
I think the "speed sire" that could carry his speed a distance when he raced is MUCH more likely to sire a 2 turn horse - Seattle Slew being a perfect example, with In Excess being another (when they stay sound enough to run two turns). I think Smarty Jones may well turn out to sire two turn speed sire because he could stretch out.
Mr P was a freak, and that's all there is to it.
which is why I can't wait to see what Ghostzapper and Lion Heart do at stud.