Majestic Warrior...is he a stallion prospect extraordinaire

[Maven]

like scat daddy has 25% mr. p blood.. which IMHO makes him damn near impossible to bred to in america unless you want a grimlin

I disagree with this. Although he is 4sx2d Mr. Prospector, it's through two daughters, which opens him up the majority of Mr. P blood found in mares through sons.

At this point, Mr. P inbreeding has been very effective and although he's not my favorite horse to see replicated in a pedigree, I dont think it will hurt Scat Daddy too badly. Resulting inbreeding would be 3x5xX... more than likely the X picking up a male conduit which balances out the two remaining lines.

There are more "closed" pedigree stallions out there... Bluegrass Cat being one of note... Storm Cat over Indy over Mr. P over Northern Dancer... thats pretty much every sire line in our commercial market in one pedigree. Some interesting inbreeding will be going on there.

[kimberley mine]

Take a look at his dams' sires...

1st dam by Mr Prospector

2nd dam by Hoist the Flag

3rd dam by Bold Ruler

4th dam by Hill Prince

Very nice, don't you think?

Respectfully

And completely free of Nearctic and Seattle Slew. Lots of options if/when he hits the shed.

[Maven]

Was thinking the same thing. Would love to see him doubled up with more Bourtai blood. A good Aptitude mare would be very interesting.

I love the versatility in his pedigree...

[kimberley mine]

Actually, I was thinking Slew'o'gold and Coastal.

I also think he's crying out for some Buckpasser, which makes the above two even more interesting.

[Rokeby Forever]

I also think he's crying out for some Buckpasser

Kimberley (with 2 e's) - you just melted my heart! That was the first thing that crossed my mind when I looked at his page.

[Playwithfire]

War Pass' pedigree structure is the best of the lot in my opinion. I love the way he's linebred.

Question: When you say you like the "pedigree structure" can you explain what you mean by that?

Also what is it you like about how he's linebred? 4 crosses of Nasrullah, 2 on each side of pedigree, or are you looking deeper than 5 gens?

Thanks.

[Maven]

Pedigree structure is just the way each line of the pedigree sets up over 8 generations, but in 5 generations in particular.

I can often look at a pedigree and have a gut-feeling if it's going to produce a racehorse or not.

I've looked at thousands of pedigrees and always tried to come up with common traits and characteristics of top tier horses... and it's just sort of a gut feeling or realization you get when you look at a pedigree.

I guess it's one of those things that's hard to explain but it's something that has been self-taught. Clark Shepherd at Stonewall has a very similar method and he can articulate it much better than I can and he has had tremendous success in plannings and buying stock.

As far as the linebreeding, it's just very "clean". All the ends are tied up well and it flows evenly. Its especially rare to see 4 crosses of Nasrullah that close in a horse today and I like that one of the crosses is through a daughter, keeping it from being male dominated.

I think War Pass will be a great option for Indy line mares since Indy loves more Bold Ruler/Nasrullah. He'll be real fun to breed to.

[Rokeby Forever]

Maven, wouldn't you agree that part of pedigree structure involves looking down the road? In other words, a "structure breeder" might look to come up with a filly next year not so much for racing, but for breeding her to a sire when she's of age that will throw an "ultimate" pedigree?

Just look at the genius of planning that went into Roberto. Breeding Nashua to Rarelea wasn't an accident - it did produce a nice filly in Bramalea, but I think the whole idea was to get Royal Charger on top of Nasrullah to get a 5X4 to Mumtaz Begum. The result? A top notch turfer and a great sire.

[bdw0617]

very very good point roke. that's what I ment by the grimlin statement.

[Maven]

That's a given, Rok. I believe we had a whole discussion about Kafwain concerning this very same thing... I liked him because he had an open pedigree that would work with the majority of the population and would set him up to be a good broodmare sire, which is essentially what you're talking about.

As it is, I always try to plan my breed to race matings two generations at a time.

And Bdw, I guess I just dont get your "grimlin" comment. It's been proven time and time again that an often inbred animal can produce big horses when practicing heterosis.

Most of our legendary breeders used the system of close inbreeding to try their hand at hybrid vigor in the next generation.

So in actuality, a closely inbred individual is often a better candidate, in theory, for planning the "ultimate mating" a generation or two down the line.

[Playwithfire]

Pedigree structure is just the way each line of the pedigree sets up over 8 generations, but in 5 generations in particular.

I can often look at a pedigree and have a gut-feeling if it's going to produce a racehorse or not.

I've looked at thousands of pedigrees and always tried to come up with common traits and characteristics of top tier horses... and it's just sort of a gut feeling or realization you get when you look at a pedigree.

I guess it's one of those things that's hard to explain but it's something that has been self-taught. Clark Shepherd at Stonewall has a very similar method and he can articulate it much better than I can and he has had tremendous success in plannings and buying stock.

As far as the linebreeding, it's just very "clean". All the ends are tied up well and it flows evenly. Its especially rare to see 4 crosses of Nasrullah that close in a horse today and I like that one of the crosses is through a daughter, keeping it from being male dominated.

I think War Pass will be a great option for Indy line mares since Indy loves more Bold Ruler/Nasrullah. He'll be real fun to breed to.

Thanks for the response. So, as i understand, you look for things like balance of speed/stamina, not to much duplication of certain traits that may not be positive, (or whatever it is that appeals to you pedigree wise). Seems like that comes w/ experience, and knowing what you like to see, and what you believe works.

[Playwithfire]

And Bdw, I guess I just dont get your "grimlin" comment. It's been proven time and time again that an often inbred animal can produce big horses when practicing heterosis.

Most of our legendary breeders used the system of close inbreeding to try their hand at hybrid vigor in the next generation.

So in actuality, a closely inbred individual is often a better candidate, in theory, for planning the "ultimate mating" a generation or two down the line.

In your opinion, what do you think of the inbreeding in Quiet Dance (dam of Saint Liam)? My friend bought her full brother at Keeneland this year. The colt is also grey. Quiet American has Dr. Fager doubled close, and the dam throws in more Princequillio, Native Dancer and Nearctic. QD was a stakes winner so i guess the obvious answer is "it works" but do you like that kind of linebreeding?

[Maven]

Correct. Everyone has a different idea of what they think the perfect pedigree and race horse is. I highly recommend looking at as many pedigrees as you can of both good and bad horses.

Focus on the female family and then look at the whole pedigree picture and look for common characteristics. You'd be shocked at how you soon learn to "feel" your way around a pedigree.

I truly believe so much of this is "instinct".

[Maven]

And Bdw, I guess I just dont get your "grimlin" comment. It's been proven time and time again that an often inbred animal can produce big horses when practicing heterosis.

Most of our legendary breeders used the system of close inbreeding to try their hand at hybrid vigor in the next generation.

So in actuality, a closely inbred individual is often a better candidate, in theory, for planning the "ultimate mating" a generation or two down the line.

In your opinion, what do you think of the inbreeding in Quiet Dance (dam of Saint Liam)? My friend bought her full brother at Keeneland this year. The colt is also grey. Quiet American has Dr. Fager doubled close, and the dam throws in more Princequillio, Native Dancer and Nearctic. QD was a stakes winner so i guess the obvious answer is "it works" but do you like that kind of linebreeding?

Quiet American is a good example of a closely inbred stallion who, when you breed mares who are heavily inbred/linebred to different horses, seem to get good results.

Nearco and Nearctic seem to be keys for him as well. Re-enforcing them in his pedigree seems to have really worked.

I think Quiet American is one of those sires who, because of a such a high class pedigree, regardless of his close inbreeding or not, will get top notch horses, but I suspect his best producing daughters and sons are probably out of mares that were moderately to heavily inbred.

Quiet Dancer would be one of those who was out of a moderately inbred mare, as is Cara Rafaela. When a high class foal of his is not out of a moderately inbred mare, the common denominator seems to be they're inbred to Native Dancer.

Genetics are not an exact science but they do work on trends. It's why it's such a crap shoot to breed to unproven stallions.

[Playwithfire]

Maven,
I appreciate your insights. I just looked thru QA's top earners, all three of those sires (Princequillo, Native dancer, Nearctic) seem to show up at least once or twice in the dam's pedigrees. Hopefully that cross will continue to work.