Horse Slaughter, the next chapter - you should read this!

[KamiBrooks]

You have finally proved that you actually do own a horse.

or I could be a 14yo skipping math class

I will tell though I imagine that I have saved more horses in a month than you will save in a lifetime.

uh, good for you?

I have not stated that I am for or against horse slaughter ...Yes i am clearly heated I was on your side at one time

I have tried to be clear that I am anti-slaughter. I am still not clear about your position, but took it to be pro-slaughter.

evan though you bash my input.

My intention was to respond to your postings. Lack of agreement and posting my opinions is not bashing.

The 200 horses that I rescued where not a bad investment as you say.

I used these terms because you refered to them as assets in your post.

Yes kb's will not take small horses colts or ponys so if noone at the autions wants them what then line em up and euthanize....when exposed to the thousands of neglected horses and sickning situations I am convinced that anything that we can possibly do to make horses more valuable is what needs to be done.

Unfortunately the only way to increase the value of horses is to reduce the numbers available and increase disposable income of potential buyers. Alternatley, gas can go through the roof and horses come back as a main mode of transportation, then their value would also increase. But that is not a real likely hood for this winter. Perhaps by next winter

To reduce number you (the world in general) can stop producing and/or eliminate existing horses (euthenasia, slaughter) prior to their natural life span. If no one wants to be a part of reducing the number of horses then they will continue to decline in value, regardless of if slaughter is an option or not. I have no problem with euthanizing no bid horses at sales. I view that as far bettern than packing them into an over crowded trailer to have the snot kicked out of them while they're transported to a slaughter house. Both ways result in a horse that is dead. Euth at the sale allows the horse to avoid the transport conditions.

Even with reduced numbers, horses will still be a 'luxury item' and purchases put off given the current gas, feed, forage, boarding, etc, etc prices that are not likely to improve (again, baring the scenario that horses become the most affordable means of transport)

This is a TB board and not a rescue board. You should consider joining on-line rescue groups who may be able to help you or at least give you support. If you PM me, I will send you some groups.

[Shannon Inkster]

How would you regulate a stallion licensing fee? So since I am breeding registered stock I would be charged and the fellow down the street who is breeding whatever to whatever wouldn't? If the commercial haulers and the few slaughter plants can't be supervised/regulated then how do you propose this?
Shannon

[Cathyleabo]

State fruit is the Pear.

Okay so we can dispose of them on our land, but 1/2 mile from a dwelling and 1/4 mile from standing water is extremely prohibitive in Western Oregon.
I can see this being feasable east of the mountains, however, this doesn't help us much.

[KamiBrooks]

How would you regulate a stallion licensing fee? So since I am breeding registered stock I would be charged and the fellow down the street who is breeding whatever to whatever wouldn't? If the commercial haulers and the few slaughter plants can't be supervised/regulated then how do you propose this?
Shannon

A Stallion License would be required for any in tact male. It does not matter if they are breeding or not; if they are registered or not; or even if they 'know they're a stallion".

Licensing in a similar manner as dogs are currently licensed. In Ohio, people are ticketed for dog licenses all the time. Its a pretty cut and dried thing for any police officer to determine. You either do or don't have a dog. You either do or don't have it licensed.

With stallions, it is pretty easy to tell if they have testicles most of the time. I can't remember ever hearing of a gelding mistaken for a stallion. If they have testicles, a license fee would be paid. So any mistakes would be made to benifit the owner of the stallion.

In Calif, owners of intact males dogs are charged higher fees. States already tax the sale breedable animals differently than non-breedable (geldings). States already have regulations specific to stallions (age of handler, height of fences, etc). NAIS is going to require the registration and tracking of ALL horses any way. So it is nothing new to treat Stallions differently. I proposed a $150/yr licensing fee (actually a form of taxation for ownership) as a means of discouraging casual and back yard breeders.

If a breeder is not willing to absorb $150/Stallion/year the odds are good that they are casual breeders. For individuals who keep stallion "prospects" that are not earning or performing well enough to justify future breeding, the licensing would encourage gelding them. There are plenty of medications that are routinely used on geldings and mares to get the same mental and physical effects w/out the testicles.

Of course anyone who really wants their stud can just continue to pay the fee.

[KamiBrooks]

State fruit is the Pear.

kind of a let down. At least they weren't p*ssing away tax dollars debating apples and oranges.

[ratherrapid]

ms. brooks this refers to your arguments instead of your admirable work with horses. you too luv! nice to see true horse rescuers out there.

is all this kind of silly? your posts, if you put them all together, concede every argument for keeping the plants except one, which is that you consider slaughter plants inhumane. thus, you propose alternatives that are almost too ridiculous to contemplate including incineration, as if we needed more junk in the atmosphere. Yes, let's incinerate a billion carcasses a year, as well as let john deere chop up every blade of grass.

how about coming clean and admitting that euthanasia stations and euthnasia sales, as if those fantasies will ever occur, are exactly the same things as plants except for method. my reference to the speciousness of your arguments is that they are irrelevant to the bill before congress. which closes plants and closes borders. there's nothing else in the bills, nor provision for unwanted animals.

The sad part is that those people so dedicated to preventing animal abuse who are now side tracked by anti-slaughter might be putting their energy into emphasis on transport and method instead of closing plants and borders. make any sense?

[Shannon Inkster]

Ask anybody who has worked at the pound on how many people comply with licensing their dogs. My point is the BB's don't care and won't comply and the one's breeding the decent animals will be picking up the tab. Shelters are still full even though dogs are suppose to be licensed.
Shannon

[KamiBrooks]

RatherRapid -
The glory of America is that we are all entitled to our own views and free to promote them I will always defended your right to do that. And as an old person I am taking advantage of those same rights that I defended in my younger days

Our differences are based in our assumptions. I live under the assumption that

(a) An industry will not change its ways unless there is either a profit or an ENFORCED regulatory incentive. I have no faith in the USDA to enforce anything and the handling of horses in the slaughter pipeline disgusts me on a personal level. If they provide divided stalls in transport trucks and absolutely exclude the pregnant, lame and blind then I would begin to come over to your side. (They already exclude the starved and old by selling them to rescues at 10x their value)

(b) Euth of even 100,000 horses over a 365 day period across the US is not the big deal that people think it is. Slaughter accounts for less than 10% of the estimated annual equine mortality rates. That means that 900,000 horses are already being euthanized, killed or die in from other than slaughter within the US already. I think, slaughtered horses account for approx 1% of the total estimated US horse population. I haven't looked into it, but I would be willing to guess that more horses die of colic than slaughter. I chose to put down 5 horses on my farm over the course of 2006. Did it suck, yes. But they were better served to be released from their problems. Nothing came to an end as a result of it.

My only correction is that I am not a 'rescue'. I make that correction because I actually hold a low opinion of the 'rescue' concept as it has evolved with the advent of the internet. There are good rescues out there (like canter), but many are mentally ill individuals who have found an enabling avenue in the internet. This is an area that I also think should be regulated, but the topic of a different thread on a different board.

Shannon -
I agree with what you say, but breeders can turn in non-compliant neighbors just the same way as neighbors call about dogs running loose. IF NAIS goes through to mandatory, compliance will be very easy to enforce as the government will be right up the but of anyone who dares own any horse.

FROM A SICK PERSPECTIVE - I'm always amazed at how pro-slaughter who are so concerned with job losses, trade imbalances, etc... never promot the butcher and sale of dog meat to over seas where there is a proven market for it. With any luck they wouldn't even need USDA inspection. If slaughter is an acceptable solution for unwanted horses, why not use it for dogs too?

-------
Well, work week is now over. You all have a good weekend. I'll be going to a class to learn how to meditate with my horse... should be interesting and perhaps it will cause me to view things differently.

[casallc]

RatherRapid -
The glory of America is that we are all entitled to our own views and free to promote them I will always defended your right to do that. And as an old person I am taking advantage of those same rights that I defended in my younger days

Our differences are based in our assumptions. I live under the assumption that

(a) An industry will not change its ways unless there is either a profit or an ENFORCED regulatory incentive. I have no faith in the USDA to enforce anything and the handling of horses in the slaughter pipeline disgusts me on a personal level. If they provide divided stalls in transport trucks and absolutely exclude the pregnant, lame and blind then I would begin to come over to your side. (They already exclude the starved and old by selling them to rescues at 10x their value)

(b) Euth of even 100,000 horses over a 365 day period across the US is not the big deal that people think it is. Slaughter accounts for less than 10% of the estimated annual equine mortality rates. That means that 900,000 horses are already being euthanized, killed or die in from other than slaughter within the US already. I think, slaughtered horses account for approx 1% of the total estimated US horse population. I haven't looked into it, but I would be willing to guess that more horses die of colic than slaughter. I chose to put down 5 horses on my farm over the course of 2006. Did it suck, yes. But they were better served to be released from their problems. Nothing came to an end as a result of it.

My only correction is that I am not a 'rescue'. I make that correction because I actually hold a low opinion of the 'rescue' concept as it has evolved with the advent of the internet. There are good rescues out there (like canter), but many are mentally ill individuals who have found an enabling avenue in the internet. This is an area that I also think should be regulated, but the topic of a different thread on a different board.

Shannon -
I agree with what you say, but breeders can turn in non-compliant neighbors just the same way as neighbors call about dogs running loose. IF NAIS goes through to mandatory, compliance will be very easy to enforce as the government will be right up the but of anyone who dares own any horse.

FROM A SICK PERSPECTIVE - I'm always amazed at how pro-slaughter who are so concerned with job losses, trade imbalances, etc... never promot the butcher and sale of dog meat to over seas where there is a proven market for it. With any luck they wouldn't even need USDA inspection. If slaughter is an acceptable solution for unwanted horses, why not use it for dogs too?

-------
Well, work week is now over. You all have a good weekend. I'll be going to a class to learn how to meditate with my horse... should be interesting and perhaps it will cause me to view things differently.

You're quite the little pro-government socialist aren't you. Let the government take care of everything for everyone, but the truth is when the government does anything they do it with half the effeciency and more than double the cost. I have no problem with sending surplus dogs overseas for human consumption, sounds like a reasonable idea (just one more thing you're wrong about). Navajos eat them now on the reservations and young puppy is considered quite a treat.

[madelyn]

How would you regulate a stallion licensing fee? So since I am breeding registered stock I would be charged and the fellow down the street who is breeding whatever to whatever wouldn't? If the commercial haulers and the few slaughter plants can't be supervised/regulated then how do you propose this?
Shannon

A Stallion License would be required for any in tact male. It does not matter if they are breeding or not; if they are registered or not; or even if they 'know they're a stallion".

Licensing in a similar manner as dogs are currently licensed. In Ohio, people are ticketed for dog licenses all the time. Its a pretty cut and dried thing for any police officer to determine. You either do or don't have a dog. You either do or don't have it licensed.

With stallions, it is pretty easy to tell if they have testicles most of the time. I can't remember ever hearing of a gelding mistaken for a stallion. If they have testicles, a license fee would be paid. So any mistakes would be made to benifit the owner of the stallion.

In Calif, owners of intact males dogs are charged higher fees. States already tax the sale breedable animals differently than non-breedable (geldings). States already have regulations specific to stallions (age of handler, height of fences, etc). NAIS is going to require the registration and tracking of ALL horses any way. So it is nothing new to treat Stallions differently. I proposed a $150/yr licensing fee (actually a form of taxation for ownership) as a means of discouraging casual and back yard breeders.

If a breeder is not willing to absorb $150/Stallion/year the odds are good that they are casual breeders. For individuals who keep stallion "prospects" that are not earning or performing well enough to justify future breeding, the licensing would encourage gelding them. There are plenty of medications that are routinely used on geldings and mares to get the same mental and physical effects w/out the testicles.

Of course anyone who really wants their stud can just continue to pay the fee.

I just had visions of Reno 911 crawling all over the landscape, bending with the short shorts butt to the camera, peering under each horse they encounter in search of testicles.

Go ahead, pass it. It is entirely ridiculous and unenforceable, except as a punishment to legitimate breeders.

[madelyn]

Oh ANOTHER VISION. All the barn help kneeling outside the stall of the pregger delivering mare, at the feet of a statue of St. Francis, praying for a filly since the farm owner has decreed all colts will be killed at birth because of the penalties. Sort of the reverse of Chinese women hiding their daughters in fear.

[nferro9925]

Madelyn -





I don't like slaughter houses in the US - but the ones in Mexico are even
worst. Many people do not take care of their animals. For all those of you who help in anyway possible, thank you.
If you don't - please re--consider a donation if time isn't feasible.

[griff]

I'm a libertariam and really hate to see any additional government programs to deal with horses.

When a deer population gets too much for the range, hunters are allowed to take the surplus. When the wild ferrel horse population, which has almost zero mustage blood, starts to endamger the range and other native species, the government now has to round them up, transport them to vast holding pens not unlike feeder cattle lots and feed and care for them until they die.

What a crock

griff

[Shammy Davis]

Some posts back Griff made the point that livestock are livestock. What is the difference between slaughtering the cow vs the horse. When I served in the Marines from 1967 - 1973 my travels gave me the chance to taste, enlighten myself, or at least understand something about the international cuisine and its customs concerning what we consider the use domesticated animals on the menu. While in South Vietnam, I was aware that dogs and cats were slaughtered for food. Many Asian countries have the same custom. For the orthodox Jew, pork is a no no, yet the Carp, a fish that doesn't bring 2 cents on the US food market is found daily on most tables. In many Europeon countries, equus caballus is on the plate. In India, cows roam the highways and are protected, yet the majority of its population is undernourished. The customs of the world are often hard to comprehend.

Beyond being a great player in world history, the horse has a truly romantic side. It has power and strength. It is intelligent beyond other domestic animals. People are inspired by the horse. The Koran speaks of the horse as a vehicle of god and a pillar to pray from. Truly the horse is amazing, but . . . Griff makes a good point, particularly when we consider the Thoroughbred industry as a whole. As a marketable item we buy and sell, without condition, horses across this nation just as we do other livestock. When you sell your horses at auction or privately, do you routinely query the buyer about his/her future intentions. Do you specifically forbid slaughter or other circumstances you are uncomfortable with. Of course not. You take the market price or more and re-invest it in your farm or stable. Having raised hogs for market, I believe that the current methods of putting animals down for slaughter is humane. The methods are no different for the horse, than for the hog or cow in the US. I'm of the opinion that the "no slaughter laws" do more to encourage inhumane treatment, because many countries like Mexico have no standards or laws to provide for humane treatment and care in the market place. It is those countries that are operating the slaughter facilities.

There is a draught in VA today. There is no hay to be had. Sources in other nearby states are charging $8 plus for 50 lb square bales. Round bales are going for $90 plus. Every farmer in this state is in a difficult position. Add to that the state of the national economy, the circumstances for animals, either pets or livestock, are or will become precarious as people decide who gets fed. I not talking about which animal either. I talking about people vs animals. The ASPCA and other rescue organizations are reporting an exponential rise in the amount of animals being abandoned at shelters or the local dumpster.

I'm old enough to remember when veterinarians were primarily involved in protecting the public health from animal born diseases rather than splinting a dogs broken leg or treating a cat's eye infection. The veterinarians and animal related industries have encouraged all of us to look at animals like they are relatives, pals, and confidants. It is ashame because financially they have put a price tag on our animals that doesn't come close to their real monetary value, and yet everyday across this nation people spend hundreds and possibly thousands to save animals whose life expectancy might not normally be 10 years. It is very possible that we have it wrong and equine meat consuming countries have it right. If economic conditions in the country don't get better, we'll know the answer much sooner than we'll feel comfortable with.

[winds]

Can we please stop wasting space on this tired argument! The equine slaughterhouses are illegal, you lost so go on to something else more productive.

winds