well, we saw this coming . . .Smart Strike

[Maven]

Not necessarily. What was that cross that killed the Phipps breeding operation for like a decade...? I cant remember who it was.

And if there was a true nick, it would have already been evident, which means if there are graded stakes horses from it, it should be looked upon as a result of the family, not necessarily some "nick".

[Rokeby Forever]

Hmmm....well, AP Indy has been knockin' 'em dead with Mr P and Seeking The Gold mares...I don't know if Mr P and/or his line are a "nick," or if those families the mares brought are strong enough for any good sire to have success with, but if it is because of the families, AP should have no problem with the Storm Cat mares waiting for him.

Unless Storm Cat is simply the poison that I've always claimed him to be.

[llbean]

Hmmm....well, AP Indy has been knockin' 'em dead with Mr P and Seeking The Gold mares...I don't know if Mr P and/or his line are a "nick," or if those families the mares brought are strong enough for any good sire to have success with, but if it is because of the families, AP should have no problem with the Storm Cat mares waiting for him.

Yeah well I guess that kind of makes sense; but what gives you the idea that he'll moreso have no problem with Storm Cat mares than with any other of the expensive mares thrown at him??

Unless Storm Cat is simply the poison that I've always claimed him to be.

Alternatively, it could just turn out to be a bad nick... Or is it you don't belive in nicks?

Cuz if you do I respect your opinion (after all, the evidence isn't conclusive at this point), but have to disagree with it on my part.

Also, I'd like to ask why you don't believe in nicks? (if you don't)

-llbean

[Rokeby Forever]

Hi Ilbean. Of course I believe in nicks - haven't I written enough about Hail To Reason/Buckpasser? Northern Dancer/Buckpasser - how's that for a nick?

Let's take Alysheba. Not a good sire, but a good broodmare sire. Why? The strength of the dam families. Same with Spectacular Bid. The same with Secretariat. The same with a lot of high profile flops. To that end, I think AP going to Storm Cat mares in 2008 and beyond has great promise - the families that those Storm Cat broodies carry are the strongest on Earth. It's not just that they're expensive - every bluehen in the business lives in the most recent Storm Cat mares.

Do I like the AP/Storm Cat nick by itself? No...I hate it. Storm Cat makes me cringe whenever I see his name...but AP/Storm Cat mares has to be a winner in the future - based on female tails. Thus far, it's not...but a lot of Storm Cat mares that have been producers to this point were born when Storm Cat stood for 10% (or less) of his current fee. When AP starts dating those mares that cost $500,000 for a stud fee, the sky's the limit. He's first getting to Storm Flag Flying and broodies like that.

[Maven]

I see where you're going with this but if you're going to use age as an example, how do you explain with 10 foals of racing age from very young A.P. Indy mares, Storm Cat has a G1 winner and a G3 winner while Indy has had over 50 runners from Storm Cat mares and has only (as far as I can find) one graded winner?

I think it's just a bad cross that has it origins in the commercial mentality of the sport.

People forget how counter-productive a bad cross can be. I can't remember for the life of me what stallions it was, but I want to say there was a 5-10 year span where the Phipps stable went from being a huge force to having only a handful of stakes horses because of a horrible nick.

They ended up with plodders and had to infuse speed into them... mid to late 70's maybe? Rok, you follow them... help a sistah out!

[Maven]

By the way, why do people think Secretariat was not a good sire? Because he never produced a replicate of himself on the track? He had about 9% stakes winner from foals. That's damn good in my book.

[Rokeby Forever]

Secretariat needed speed - breeders figured this out too late. Except for Ribbon, his Princequillo came through and not his Bold Ruler.

Phipps was filled with distance bred mares by the mid 1970s (lots of Buckpasser, Tom Rolfe, and Damascus), and looked to sires like Majestic Prince, Key To The Mint, Nijinksy, and Secretariat (speak of the devil), and whatever Reviewer they used gave them unsound horses. Yep, they got a bunch of plodders, but the problem was compounded by Angel Penna taking over from John Russell. Penna would often work a Phipps baby like crazy, it would get injured before it ran, and then return as a three year old in a 1 1/8th grass race in its first start. It was when Phipps shifted course to Mr Prospector and later hired Shug McGaughey (after Time For A Change broke down) that the family reemerged. Seeking The Gold finally popped up and the resurgence was set for a while - until dumbbell Dinny took charge.

It's interesting that the Phipps family has has a TON to Mr Ps, but they never had a speedball by him - many were Ryhthm type horses.

[halo]

Maven are you thinking of the Buckpasser/Bold Ruler cross?

[Maven]

That sounds right, Halo! If it is the cross I'm thinking of, it was HORRIBLE!

Thanks!

[Mahubah]

I have no doubt that's the cross. The only good horse that came out of it was Quick as Lightning, a winner of the One Thousand Guineas.

[sparta]

Poor old Buckpasser gets knocked all the time for not crossing with Bold Ruler mares, but did they nick well with any sire? (I'm actually asking...) They did OK with Majestic Light, Round Table, Forli and Graustark; the case could be made that they would have done brilliantly with Hoist the Flag. I can remember a lot of nice mares by BR, but only one first-rater (Laughter). Odd considering that all of them came from brilliant families....

The Buckpasser/Bold Ruler cross doesn't seem too much less successful than the Damascus/Bold Ruler cross to me. And it's surely no less succesful than the Pronto/Bold Ruler cross. (Although it's doubtful if Pronto crossed well with anything....)

[Rokeby Forever]

I think old man Phipps kept breeding Buckpasser to Bold Ruler mares in the early - mid 1970s in the hopes of getting himself a Derby winner, but Buckpasser was actually a better sire of fillies and (later) broodmares, like Evasive, dam of RIP Slew o'Gold.

On the reverse cross, I think terming the pairing as "horrible" is an overstatement - a son of Bold Ruler (Secretariat) was bred to a daughter of Buckpasser (Lassie Dear) and the result was Weekend Surprise. She was a nice filly and went on to do some good things as a broodmare.

It's a shame that two of Bold Ruler's best fillies didn't become great broodies - Lamb Chop broke down in a race and Gamely had only two foals.

[kimberley mine]

Both Pleasant Tap and Lemon Drop Kid took a big (and expected) jump.

I really dont know how you can NOT like Gulch at 20k.

According to the article Pleasant Tap stayed at $15k.

I have to disagree with you about Gulch...I don't know how one could not LOVE him at $20k. Talk about major quality at an exceptional price.

Smart Strike at $150k is in the danger, Will Robinson category for me. At a time when stud fees are about as high as they can get and breeders still looking at a profit, doubling his fee is a risky move. I don't argue that he's earned it, but three years down the line, would YOU want to try and recoup $200k on a Smart Strike foal?

[cewright]

Both Pleasant Tap and Lemon Drop Kid took a big (and expected) jump.

According to the article Pleasant Tap stayed at $15k.

According to Pleasant Tap's page on the Lane's End site, his 2008 fee is $25000.

Chuck

[Maven]

Both Pleasant Tap and Lemon Drop Kid took a big (and expected) jump.

I really dont know how you can NOT like Gulch at 20k.

According to the article Pleasant Tap stayed at $15k.

I have to disagree with you about Gulch...I don't know how one could not LOVE him at $20k. Talk about major quality at an exceptional price.

Smart Strike at $150k is in the danger, Will Robinson category for me. At a time when stud fees are about as high as they can get and breeders still looking at a profit, doubling his fee is a risky move. I don't argue that he's earned it, but three years down the line, would YOU want to try and recoup $200k on a Smart Strike foal?

I think you mis-read what I said about Gulch.

And here they also list Pleasant Tap at 25k. http://breeding.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=41359

Here are the stallions and their fees:

A.P Indy ($300,000)
After Market ($30,000)
Aragorn ($30,000)
Belong to Me ($12,500)
Bowman’s Band ($6,000)
City Zip ($15,000)
Dixieland Band ($50,000)
Dixie Union ($50,000)
Gulch ($20,000)
Kingmambo (private)
Langfuhr ($25,000)
Lemon Drop Kid ($35,000)
Mineshaft ($75,000)
Mingun ($7,500)
Pleasantly Perfect ($30,000)
Pleasant Tap ($25,000)
Rock Hard Ten ($50,000)
Smart Strike ($150,000)
Stephen Got Even ($12,500)
Wando ($5,000)

All Lane’s End stud fees for farm seasons are on a live-foal guarantee basis and are payable Nov. 1, 2008.