Hi Dray,
Just a thought: Sophia Loren has had a stellar career, but she's now in her 70s. Would you (given the choice) date her now, or when she was 35? Sometimes, things just ain't what they used to be.
A.P. Indy or Storm Cat?
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Rokeby Forever
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What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
hi dray33
That's what I sensed, dray33.
Before I inject some thoughts, re your plan to breed Brushed Bayou to Storm Cat, I'd like to hear what you have to say re Brushed Bayou's conformation/structure (in general), her front-end (in detail), and what she has in the way of bone-mass.
As you might have figured, there are a number of things that (without the benefit of knowing more about your filly) do concern me, re your plan. Not the least of which is the fact that Brushed Bayou's 2nd dam is by Private Account (to my way of thinking, he's a stallion that has a propensity [if you will] to be a source for knees/front-end/bone and other issues), and that your intention is to breed BB to Storm Cat (knees etc).
Brushed Bayou might prove to be a perfect match for Storm Cat (the result will arguably be the determining factor); but, (on the surface) she seems (to me anyway) like she might be a prime candidate to bump an already high risk venture, up to an even higher level of risk.
I admire your enthusiasm and passion for the game, but remind you (although I sense that you're already aware)...there are risks and potential pit-falls at just about every turn. Occassionally though...there is a pot of gold to be had.
That said...I wish you nothing but success, in your thoroughbred ventures.
Best.
Respectfully
dray33 wrote:The exercise was more than pure conjecture, to be honest FOS. Looks like my Broad Brush filly, BRUSHED BAYOU, might be retired by year end. So I asked, and was confirmed for a date, with STORM CAT. Hadda give it a shot.
That's what I sensed, dray33.
Before I inject some thoughts, re your plan to breed Brushed Bayou to Storm Cat, I'd like to hear what you have to say re Brushed Bayou's conformation/structure (in general), her front-end (in detail), and what she has in the way of bone-mass.
As you might have figured, there are a number of things that (without the benefit of knowing more about your filly) do concern me, re your plan. Not the least of which is the fact that Brushed Bayou's 2nd dam is by Private Account (to my way of thinking, he's a stallion that has a propensity [if you will] to be a source for knees/front-end/bone and other issues), and that your intention is to breed BB to Storm Cat (knees etc).
Brushed Bayou might prove to be a perfect match for Storm Cat (the result will arguably be the determining factor); but, (on the surface) she seems (to me anyway) like she might be a prime candidate to bump an already high risk venture, up to an even higher level of risk.
I admire your enthusiasm and passion for the game, but remind you (although I sense that you're already aware)...there are risks and potential pit-falls at just about every turn. Occassionally though...there is a pot of gold to be had.
That said...I wish you nothing but success, in your thoroughbred ventures.
Best.
Respectfully
Thank you FOS, I appreciate your thoughts.
BRUSHED BAYOU physically: According to her trainer, Clement: She is one finest looking fillys around, I have seen him show her off to people, and add "and that's all HER, no funny stuff" meaning, he does not use any steroids to build mass. She is perfectly sized, maybe a bit bigger boned than most. Very much Broad Brush. Strong front end, powerful caboose. Balanced, strong, she should make a lovely broodmare. Knees and ankles are perfect, she might be considered somewhat sickle-hocked (hence the turf). Feet are good sized, unfortunately she just ran through them.
To me, she is almost plain, a lot like her sire, BROAD BRUSH. I would have pegged her for a late-blooming 3yo-4yo: bingo, she comes out of the gate with a 98 beyer at two... kind of freaking us all out. But 3yo year she had foot problems. She runs hard and fast. The turf seemed to agree with her, although the 98 beyer was on dirt. Won her only small stakes (The Caress), and ran poorly on a yeilding turf (we would again never run her unless its dry and hard). She was idagnosed with a small "something" in her right front (by Bramledge and Clement), so we gave her some time off... I am not convinced she will make it back to race (get in shape) before the sheds open. I always believed she had a mile in her, unlike what is shown on her pp's. She is very VERY sweet to be around.
If the mating is a good one, I think she will add soundness and muscle to the resulting nice sized foal, turf or dirt is a tossup.
BRUSHED BAYOU physically: According to her trainer, Clement: She is one finest looking fillys around, I have seen him show her off to people, and add "and that's all HER, no funny stuff" meaning, he does not use any steroids to build mass. She is perfectly sized, maybe a bit bigger boned than most. Very much Broad Brush. Strong front end, powerful caboose. Balanced, strong, she should make a lovely broodmare. Knees and ankles are perfect, she might be considered somewhat sickle-hocked (hence the turf). Feet are good sized, unfortunately she just ran through them.
To me, she is almost plain, a lot like her sire, BROAD BRUSH. I would have pegged her for a late-blooming 3yo-4yo: bingo, she comes out of the gate with a 98 beyer at two... kind of freaking us all out. But 3yo year she had foot problems. She runs hard and fast. The turf seemed to agree with her, although the 98 beyer was on dirt. Won her only small stakes (The Caress), and ran poorly on a yeilding turf (we would again never run her unless its dry and hard). She was idagnosed with a small "something" in her right front (by Bramledge and Clement), so we gave her some time off... I am not convinced she will make it back to race (get in shape) before the sheds open. I always believed she had a mile in her, unlike what is shown on her pp's. She is very VERY sweet to be around.
If the mating is a good one, I think she will add soundness and muscle to the resulting nice sized foal, turf or dirt is a tossup.
Isn't Broad Brush known for throwing suspect knees at times too? I seem to remember seeing a caution on Include's page indicating ideal mares being good on the front end in case he throws some of his sire's quirks, though he himself does not have the issues.
Storm Cat knees and Broad Brush knees has to be considered as to whether it is a risk you are comfortable with. A mating with Storm Cat seems very commercial to me and my preferences definitely run more in the breed to race arena.
For the kind of fees you are thinking about, I'd also be thinking about England/Ireland and Sadlers Wells and Red Ransom. Of all the big name stallions nearing the end of their careers, Sadlers Wells is perhaps the one I'd most want to get a mare to.
Rahy seems obvious and I think I might like Cherokee Run with her too. His damline brings in more Turn To, which Broad Brush likes. And definitely echo the "yes" for Smart Strike---such a great female line as well as a return of Turn To amongst others.
So I guess my answer to AP Indy or Storm Cat is neither. I think you have better chances of getting a good Indy or Cat at the sales or in a private sale than you do breeding to them. And I'm not convinced large stud fees equates to stellar offspring.
Storm Cat knees and Broad Brush knees has to be considered as to whether it is a risk you are comfortable with. A mating with Storm Cat seems very commercial to me and my preferences definitely run more in the breed to race arena.
For the kind of fees you are thinking about, I'd also be thinking about England/Ireland and Sadlers Wells and Red Ransom. Of all the big name stallions nearing the end of their careers, Sadlers Wells is perhaps the one I'd most want to get a mare to.
Rahy seems obvious and I think I might like Cherokee Run with her too. His damline brings in more Turn To, which Broad Brush likes. And definitely echo the "yes" for Smart Strike---such a great female line as well as a return of Turn To amongst others.
So I guess my answer to AP Indy or Storm Cat is neither. I think you have better chances of getting a good Indy or Cat at the sales or in a private sale than you do breeding to them. And I'm not convinced large stud fees equates to stellar offspring.
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kimberley mine
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[quote=KAL]Since the financial resources are not issue, I say go for it. I think others are having trouble getting over the financial hurdle and are not looking at this from the same view as you. In your case, it is like buying a piece of art… or a piece of history… I actually respect your ability and your attitude, (and I am envious of your position), to see past the dollars. [/quote]
Dray, my take on the matter is somewhat different than KAL's. Having a Storm Cat foal you bred might be like owning a piece of history--but you also may end up racing the foal. In that case, Maven's advice about trying to pick a mating that is well-bred AND bred well comes into play. While there is plenty in her pedigree that suggests he might have some success with Storm Cat, there is a lot in Brushed Bayou's pedigree that suggests that other equally excellent stallions will have more success.
I am not concerned about the price of Storm Cat--but I am a bit wary of him with this one mare regarding racing success. Storm Cat has 10 foals older than 2 out of Broad Brush mares, including the good mares Broad Gains and Brushing Gloom and a full sister to Concern, and a grand total of about $158,000 earnings COMBINED amongst them. The best among them was a Meyerhoff bred (who frequently knew exactly who to breed to Broad Brush) who won just over $50,000. That colt's half-brother by Mt Livermore won over $350k on the track, and a SW half-sister by Coronado's Quest won $129k.
Moral of the story: If Brushed Bayou is to be the foundation mare of your broodmare band, this kind of poor production from good individuals is cause for concern (with apologies to Concern and Holy Bull).
If you are going to try for a breeding to an older stallion next year, and you are willing to put off Storm Cat for one year, I suggest you go for Cozzene. He will be 28 years young (and still looking great), and if he is not pensioned he will be standing his remarkable 22nd season at stud! Assuming he still stands next year, it will almost certainly be his last. In that long and illustrious career, he has sired two Breeders Cup winners, 12 millionaires (and counting), champions on 3 continents, and a long string of successful, productive horses. His daughters have recently began producing wonderful racehorses. Cozzene has three foals out of Broad Brush daughters that I know of...one is a stakes winner and the other is stakes-placed. The stakes-placed filly, Cozy Gains, won about $130,000. I don't know whether Cozy Gain's full sister raced or not, or if so what she did on the track.
Dray, my take on the matter is somewhat different than KAL's. Having a Storm Cat foal you bred might be like owning a piece of history--but you also may end up racing the foal. In that case, Maven's advice about trying to pick a mating that is well-bred AND bred well comes into play. While there is plenty in her pedigree that suggests he might have some success with Storm Cat, there is a lot in Brushed Bayou's pedigree that suggests that other equally excellent stallions will have more success.
I am not concerned about the price of Storm Cat--but I am a bit wary of him with this one mare regarding racing success. Storm Cat has 10 foals older than 2 out of Broad Brush mares, including the good mares Broad Gains and Brushing Gloom and a full sister to Concern, and a grand total of about $158,000 earnings COMBINED amongst them. The best among them was a Meyerhoff bred (who frequently knew exactly who to breed to Broad Brush) who won just over $50,000. That colt's half-brother by Mt Livermore won over $350k on the track, and a SW half-sister by Coronado's Quest won $129k.
Moral of the story: If Brushed Bayou is to be the foundation mare of your broodmare band, this kind of poor production from good individuals is cause for concern (with apologies to Concern and Holy Bull).
If you are going to try for a breeding to an older stallion next year, and you are willing to put off Storm Cat for one year, I suggest you go for Cozzene. He will be 28 years young (and still looking great), and if he is not pensioned he will be standing his remarkable 22nd season at stud! Assuming he still stands next year, it will almost certainly be his last. In that long and illustrious career, he has sired two Breeders Cup winners, 12 millionaires (and counting), champions on 3 continents, and a long string of successful, productive horses. His daughters have recently began producing wonderful racehorses. Cozzene has three foals out of Broad Brush daughters that I know of...one is a stakes winner and the other is stakes-placed. The stakes-placed filly, Cozy Gains, won about $130,000. I don't know whether Cozy Gain's full sister raced or not, or if so what she did on the track.
Rahy
When I checked the Goldmine for graded winners with Broad Brush as the dam sire with both Storm Cat and AP Indy, there were none listed. I would tend to agree with the line of reasoning of KM, perhaps on both .
Think of: Dreaming with Anna by Rahy and take a look at him.
Think of: Dreaming with Anna by Rahy and take a look at him.
With a lesser book of mares, Storm Cat has done more across the board and on an international level.
That was my main point when you pointed out book quality was the reason for Storm Cat's success... when in reality, his accomplishments came on the heels of a lesser book than that of Indy.
Facts are facts. Indy is an incredible stallion and has had a great two years, but this bashing of Storm Cat is ridiculous especially when arguments are made with statements that are not true or justified.
Not that you were bashing Storm Cat... just question how you can say you base your opinion on something like book quality when Indy has always had the better book.
That was my main point when you pointed out book quality was the reason for Storm Cat's success... when in reality, his accomplishments came on the heels of a lesser book than that of Indy.
Facts are facts. Indy is an incredible stallion and has had a great two years, but this bashing of Storm Cat is ridiculous especially when arguments are made with statements that are not true or justified.
Not that you were bashing Storm Cat... just question how you can say you base your opinion on something like book quality when Indy has always had the better book.
Don't be so humble - you are not that great.
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Rokeby Forever
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yukidragon
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