The trainers of old wouldn't work their horses over 1/2 most of the time. Every once in awhile they'd go farther. I'm sure you can find where one or two horses or trainers worked farther, but for the norm it was only a 1/2. Why, because they ran them. What the modern trainer is doing is working the horses farther, rather than running them. That doesn't make any sense to me.
I'm sure that in the hands of a competent horseman, the horses of now would be able to run in more races than their counterparts. If the lowly claimer can, than the better horses should be able to also. They are worried that they could get beat and the horses stud value will go down. I say, forget the stud value and run the race horse. He/she can take it. But you'd better be a good enough horseman to keep them together.
That's the problem, they aren't horseman enough to do the job properly. It's a sad state of affairs.
Remember, the horses aren't the ones who enter themselves, it's humans who make that call. Most of them are to chicken............
winds
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winds wrote:The trainers of old wouldn't work their horses over 1/2 most of the time. Every once in awhile they'd go farther. I'm sure you can find where one or two horses or trainers worked farther, but for the norm it was only a 1/2. Why, because they ran them. What the modern trainer is doing is working the horses farther, rather than running them. That doesn't make any sense to me.
I'm sure that in the hands of a competent horseman, the horses of now would be able to run in more races than their counterparts. If the lowly claimer can, than the better horses should be able to also. They are worried that they could get beat and the horses stud value will go down. I say, forget the stud value and run the race horse. He/she can take it. But you'd better be a good enough horseman to keep them together.
That's the problem, they aren't horseman enough to do the job properly. It's a sad state of affairs.
Remember, the horses aren't the ones who enter themselves, it's humans who make that call. Most of them are to chicken............
winds
I don't know what horse(s) you're talking about but stake horses back in the 40s, 50s, 60s & 70s routinely worked a mile often times. Rarely are horses worked a mile anymore. Citation ran "4 times" during his TC campaign in '48 as did Arts and Letters in '69 who won the Metropolitian Handicap a week before winning the Belmont and 2 weeks after running second to Majestic Prince in the Preakness. That'd be unheard of today yet it was the norm not all that long ago because horses were more durable due to better breeding and raising practices of said animals.
Gone are the days of picking up the form with horses entered in the big races trained by Whittingham.. Stephens.... Barrera with a multitiude of BULLETT works by such horses from 5/8s to a mile. Try that with today's horses no matter who trains them and they fall apart before race day.
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Rokeby Forever
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horsenuts wrote:Well, for all the noise Mott was making at Saratoga with his 2 year olds they are noticably absent from the BC races now aren't they?
Noticably absent? Sunday Holiday, Z Humor, Prussian, and two or three fillies for the BC Turf filly Juvie. And Mott has never rushed his babies - remember that. Maybe he doesn't want them winding up like Passion and Ready's Image. He also won't enter a horse he thinks can't win just to get his name in the program...unlike others that are currently 2-41 on BC day.
What synthetics are to California racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gb0mxcpPOU
I don't know, 30 years ago, when Frank Whitely, Allen Jerkens, Woody Stephens etc were all either alive or not retired (though Mr. Jerkens is still alive and not retired), the most they would work their horses was 1/2 mile. There were exceptions to the rule, but if they had a horse loose, the mutterings on the track (backside, not frontside) was "maybe if he'd worked the damn thing farther than 1/2 mile it would have been fit enough to win!"
Your memory is different than mine. I just know that if the majority of these horses had real honest to goodness horsemen in charge of their careers, they would run more races and stay around longer than they are now.
I don't believe the race records of modern day horses is to be blamed souley on the horses themselves, humans in charge of their training and entering in races, the trainers, are at least as much at fault as the breeding. I also think that the practice of retiring them to stand at stud after their 3yr old year is a big culprit. God forbid the horse loses a race, it's stud value has gone down. That practice needs to stop.
There's a thread in the General Section with regards to stopping that practice, it's been approached in several threads before. But I think it will make a difference.
winds
Your memory is different than mine. I just know that if the majority of these horses had real honest to goodness horsemen in charge of their careers, they would run more races and stay around longer than they are now.
I don't believe the race records of modern day horses is to be blamed souley on the horses themselves, humans in charge of their training and entering in races, the trainers, are at least as much at fault as the breeding. I also think that the practice of retiring them to stand at stud after their 3yr old year is a big culprit. God forbid the horse loses a race, it's stud value has gone down. That practice needs to stop.
There's a thread in the General Section with regards to stopping that practice, it's been approached in several threads before. But I think it will make a difference.
winds
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Winds...Allen Jerkens is famous for his long, slow mile works. What he'll often do is work a horse long and slow and then blow it out a few days before a race.
Woody Stephens was a butcher - remember how he trained Devil's Bag? Horses had to be made out of iron to last in that barn.
I don't know who's writing that Laz Barrera was a "bullet" freak. Ten days before Affirmed won the KY Derby, he worked the horse 1 1/8th mile.
Woody Stephens was a butcher - remember how he trained Devil's Bag? Horses had to be made out of iron to last in that barn.
I don't know who's writing that Laz Barrera was a "bullet" freak. Ten days before Affirmed won the KY Derby, he worked the horse 1 1/8th mile.
Roke,
Yes, I know Allen is famous for those long slow mile works, that is my point though, slowwwwwwwwwwww. Not these bullet works that someone else is posting these old trainers did. But when they did put the bullet works in it was either 3/8's or a 1/2 mile.
Horses today are asked to put in bullet 5/8's, 3/4's even miles for crying out loud. My point is if your going to work them that far and that fast, why not run them. The trainers today do it backwards. They put in all the fast times in the morning, wear the horses legs down to little nubs and then wonder why, they can't last a long racing career.
I wish they paid money in the mornings, these guys would make more money that way than actually running the horses in races.
winds
Yes, I know Allen is famous for those long slow mile works, that is my point though, slowwwwwwwwwwww. Not these bullet works that someone else is posting these old trainers did. But when they did put the bullet works in it was either 3/8's or a 1/2 mile.
Horses today are asked to put in bullet 5/8's, 3/4's even miles for crying out loud. My point is if your going to work them that far and that fast, why not run them. The trainers today do it backwards. They put in all the fast times in the morning, wear the horses legs down to little nubs and then wonder why, they can't last a long racing career.
I wish they paid money in the mornings, these guys would make more money that way than actually running the horses in races.
winds
Rokeby Forever wrote:Winds...Allen Jerkens is famous for his long, slow mile works. What he'll often do is work a horse long and slow and then blow it out a few days before a race.
Woody Stephens was a butcher - remember how he trained Devil's Bag? Horses had to be made out of iron to last in that barn.
I don't know who's writing that Laz Barrera was a "bullet" freak. Ten days before Affirmed won the KY Derby, he worked the horse 1 1/8th mile.
If you and winds are serious on this subject go pull up old forms or charts of the great horses and see for yourselves the workout patterns of these horses from 20-30-40-50 years ago. Many can be found on various internet sites. Or check with the racing hall of fame museum.
Secretariat drilled 3 BULLETS between the Preakness and Belmont from 5 furlongs to a mile a week prior to the race. You won't see that today and it's not because of the the trainers but rather the horses. Horses in this era come apart like a cheap suitcase and trainers know this and why they train them so carefully/lightly in comparison to a generation back.
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Rokeby Forever
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I'll take two very fast horses from that era, Horsenuts.
In between the Bay Shore and Wood Memorial, Bold Forbes (for Laz Barrera) worked three times - A mile breeze in 1:45 3/5, a mile handily in 1:38 3/5, and a :51 3/5 breeze the day before the Wood Memorial.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Seattle slew breezed a mile in 1:41 4/5, and blew out three furlongs in :34 2/5.
Other examples:
In between the Florida Derby and the Wood Memorial, Pleasant Colony worked a mile in 1:38 3/5 handily and breezed :48 4/5.
In between the San Filipe and Blue Grass, Alysheba breezed 5/8ths in 1:01 2/5 and worked 7/8ths in 1:26 3/5 handily.
In between the Arkansas Derby and KY Derby, Sunny's Halo breezed a mile in 1:43 3/5 and a mile in 1:41 3/5.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Genuine Risk breezed 5/8ths in 1:02 2/5.
What's my point? Before Quarterhorse trainers became TB trainers, horses were trained for stamina and endurance. Now they're trained for winning 1/2 mile races at 6AM. How many open gallop two miles any more? Don't tell me that the modern TB can't gallop two miles but it can work in :45 - that's baloney! Horses today fall apart because they're trained to - look how Baffert trained Maimonides. Fortunately, the horse only blew his shins - Baffert was trying to screw him into the ground!
In between the Bay Shore and Wood Memorial, Bold Forbes (for Laz Barrera) worked three times - A mile breeze in 1:45 3/5, a mile handily in 1:38 3/5, and a :51 3/5 breeze the day before the Wood Memorial.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Seattle slew breezed a mile in 1:41 4/5, and blew out three furlongs in :34 2/5.
Other examples:
In between the Florida Derby and the Wood Memorial, Pleasant Colony worked a mile in 1:38 3/5 handily and breezed :48 4/5.
In between the San Filipe and Blue Grass, Alysheba breezed 5/8ths in 1:01 2/5 and worked 7/8ths in 1:26 3/5 handily.
In between the Arkansas Derby and KY Derby, Sunny's Halo breezed a mile in 1:43 3/5 and a mile in 1:41 3/5.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Genuine Risk breezed 5/8ths in 1:02 2/5.
What's my point? Before Quarterhorse trainers became TB trainers, horses were trained for stamina and endurance. Now they're trained for winning 1/2 mile races at 6AM. How many open gallop two miles any more? Don't tell me that the modern TB can't gallop two miles but it can work in :45 - that's baloney! Horses today fall apart because they're trained to - look how Baffert trained Maimonides. Fortunately, the horse only blew his shins - Baffert was trying to screw him into the ground!
Rokeby Forever wrote:I'll take two very fast horses from that era, Horsenuts.
In between the Bay Shore and Wood Memorial, Bold Forbes (for Laz Barrera) worked three times - A mile breeze in 1:45 3/5, a mile handily in 1:38 3/5, and a :51 3/5 breeze the day before the Wood Memorial.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Seattle slew breezed a mile in 1:41 4/5, and blew out three furlongs in :34 2/5.
Other examples:
In between the Florida Derby and the Wood Memorial, Pleasant Colony worked a mile in 1:38 3/5 handily and breezed :48 4/5.
In between the San Filipe and Blue Grass, Alysheba breezed 5/8ths in 1:01 2/5 and worked 7/8ths in 1:26 3/5 handily.
In between the Arkansas Derby and KY Derby, Sunny's Halo breezed a mile in 1:43 3/5 and a mile in 1:41 3/5.
In between the Wood Memorial and KY Derby, Genuine Risk breezed 5/8ths in 1:02 2/5.
What's my point? Before Quarterhorse trainers became TB trainers, horses were trained for stamina and endurance. Now they're trained for winning 1/2 mile races at 6AM. How many open gallop two miles any more? Don't tell me that the modern TB can't gallop two miles but it can work in :45 - that's baloney! Horses today fall apart because they're trained to - look how Baffert trained Maimonides. Fortunately, the horse only blew his shins - Baffert was trying to screw him into the ground!
Today's horses simply can't take training the way horses could a generation or two back. Don't take my word for it go ask Bobby Frankel... or Allen Jerkens..... or Johnny Nerud. Frankel has survived and thrived because he adapted to the horse i.e. he backed off on the training and has had success with these lightly trained and raced animals as a result. Jerkens has commented numerous times how lightly trained the modern horse is in comparison to decades past and even he has changed his methods somewhat so as to adapt to what the animal can handle. Trainers who continued to hone on horses as in the past didn't fare very well and have gone by the wayside i.e. Van Berg... Leroy Jolley among others.
Poor breeding practices and "greenhouse raising" of horses has contributed greatly to the breed's current weakness... add also dubious use of drugs of all varieties in huge quantities and that is how we have arrived at this point.
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Rokeby Forever
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horsenuts wrote:Today's horses simply can't take training the way horses could a generation or two back. Don't take my word for it go ask Bobby Frankel... or Allen Jerkens..... or Johnny Nerud. Frankel has survived and thrived because he adapted to the horse i.e. he backed off on the training and has had success with these lightly trained and raced animals as a result. Jerkens has commented numerous times how lightly trained the modern horse is in comparison to decades past and even he has changed his methods somewhat so as to adapt to what the animal can handle. Trainers who continued to hone on horses as in the past didn't fare very well and have gone by the wayside i.e. Van Berg... Leroy Jolley among others.
Poor breeding practices and "greenhouse raising" of horses has contributed greatly to the breed's current weakness... add also dubious use of drugs of all varieties in huge quantities and that is how we have arrived at this point.
1. Why do turf horses race until they're 7, 8, or 9 years old...are they bred differently? You say that horses that race at top levels run faster and get hurt more often....so how does that explain The Tin Man winning Grade 1s this year at his age? Why has McDynamo won the BC Steeplechase five years in a row? Answer: They're trained differently. PERIOD.
2. Yes, I agree that poor breeding practices and "greenhouse raising" of horses has a lot to do with it. But, I'll still argue that everyone deals with the same bloodlines and there are trainers that break 'em down and there are trainers that don't. Has Mr Jerkens adjusted? He's ALWAYS trained to the individual, unlike the drill sargents with mega stables...but I still often see him work a horse a mile a week before a race - Society Selection worked a mile a week before the BC Distaff and ran the best race of her life. Political Force worked a mile before the Brooklyn Handicap. Swap Fliparoo worked a mile before the Test Stakes. Teammate has worked slow miles this year and comes into the BC Distaff in her best form in a year. Would any of these horses have lasted if Mr Jerkens worked them in :34 every five days?
If horses are so fragile, why are they trained with fast works and short gallops? That logic is counter to the argument that they are fragile - it's OK to drill the crap out of them but not race them more than five times a year? It sounds like modern day "cover your ass" to me - "Gee, I worked the crap out of him and he broke down...damn, this breed is fragile today!"
Horses have always been unsound. The difference is that in the past, they weren't squeezed into a set regiment that accelerated injuries, and too many trainers today just don't know how to hold a horse together. How much poultice do you see applied these days? Do you ever see horses hosed in front of a barn any more? I dare you to drive by a megastable barn and see ANY horse getting hosed. These guys can't be bothered.
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ratherrapid
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very interesting repeat of the same constant discussion. can we get to the bottom of it?
horse nuts. believe i understand what ur saying but consider your post very misinformed, starting that you think Van Berg is a hard trainer when he's just the opposite. It's the Van Berg's and the Woody Stephens types that I'm suspecting started the downward slide of training quality that was epitomized by Baffert, Lukas, and all their copycats.
While I'd disagree that Stephens is a butcher, I believe but unknown for sure that he trained lighter than his contemporaries. his book shows he was fretting about Devil's Bag going into the 3 year old season. "it never stopped raining". Woody went so far as to train the horse in an arena in KY but never could get any decent works due to the weather. he raced the horse anyway and quickly injured him, but, it's unclear whether that was due to him or the owners, or just the pressure of racing the derby favorite.
I'll bite on the horse nut's argument. Please explain specifically any substantiation you have that today's horses are less sound. Think I know where that would go, but, i'd like to see it specifically instead of the general observations.
When did it start, with what stallions, at what farms, and what and how are the horses "less sound". So many people believe this you'd have to think there's something to it, but, i never hear specifics!
horse nuts. believe i understand what ur saying but consider your post very misinformed, starting that you think Van Berg is a hard trainer when he's just the opposite. It's the Van Berg's and the Woody Stephens types that I'm suspecting started the downward slide of training quality that was epitomized by Baffert, Lukas, and all their copycats.
While I'd disagree that Stephens is a butcher, I believe but unknown for sure that he trained lighter than his contemporaries. his book shows he was fretting about Devil's Bag going into the 3 year old season. "it never stopped raining". Woody went so far as to train the horse in an arena in KY but never could get any decent works due to the weather. he raced the horse anyway and quickly injured him, but, it's unclear whether that was due to him or the owners, or just the pressure of racing the derby favorite.
I'll bite on the horse nut's argument. Please explain specifically any substantiation you have that today's horses are less sound. Think I know where that would go, but, i'd like to see it specifically instead of the general observations.
When did it start, with what stallions, at what farms, and what and how are the horses "less sound". So many people believe this you'd have to think there's something to it, but, i never hear specifics!
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ratherrapid
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Hi Ratherrapid,
Yep, Ruffian never did change leads. Frank Whiteley said that because she was so fast and often won so easily, it didn't concern him as much as it would have another horse.
But not changing leads isn't the "end all." Alydar never changed leads and he went though as hard a two year campaign as any horse you can name. His injury resulted in Affirmed crossing over on him in the Travers, not by his lead change difficulties. Some horses won't switch leads because they're off on one side, and some won't just because they're too dumb to figure it out...but I wouldn't say that because a horse won't change leads, an injury will automatically result from it.
Yep, Ruffian never did change leads. Frank Whiteley said that because she was so fast and often won so easily, it didn't concern him as much as it would have another horse.
But not changing leads isn't the "end all." Alydar never changed leads and he went though as hard a two year campaign as any horse you can name. His injury resulted in Affirmed crossing over on him in the Travers, not by his lead change difficulties. Some horses won't switch leads because they're off on one side, and some won't just because they're too dumb to figure it out...but I wouldn't say that because a horse won't change leads, an injury will automatically result from it.
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ratherrapid
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interesting! I've thought there's a high correlation between lead change failure and injury. specially at Belmont. that's a long time, and distance, to stay at one lead at speed. truthfully, were that my jock after that ride (on Ruffian) he'd best consider running for his life instead of worrying about his tack when he jumps off. in contrast i'm reminded of the superb effort by R. Albarado to change Curlin's lead in the Preakness!
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Rokeby Forever
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John Veitch and Jorge Velasquez did everything possible to get Alydar to change leads, but he just wouldn't. Maybe they should have put a gun to his head.
I think injuries will occur when a horse stays on one lead because it gets tired staying on one lead and still gives its all - but, as I wrote, many (if not most) horses stay on one lead because they're already favoring one side, so a serious injury might be inevitable, anyway.
I think injuries will occur when a horse stays on one lead because it gets tired staying on one lead and still gives its all - but, as I wrote, many (if not most) horses stay on one lead because they're already favoring one side, so a serious injury might be inevitable, anyway.