Any opinions on this cross?
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn, Diane
Any opinions on this cross?
Are there any really obvious general "nicks" that bring success stories from Marshua's Dancer mares? Actually it's a Marshua's Dancer granddaughter, but I'm trying not to be TOO obscure...
Last edited by Roguelet on Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Northern Dancer Line Stallions
When I checked the G1 Goldmine, there were 20 graded winners with Marshua's Dancer in the dam side of the pedigree. 75% had Northern Dancer stallions on the other side with Danzig leading the band. One Slew , one Mr. P, a couple of others, but overwhelmingly ND blood.
Re: Northern Dancer Line Stallions
hpkingjr wrote:When I checked the G1 Goldmine, there were 20 graded winners with Marshua's Dancer in the dam side of the pedigree. 75% had Northern Dancer stallions on the other side with Danzig leading the band. One Slew , one Mr. P, a couple of others, but overwhelmingly ND blood.
Interesting. Thank you for that info. So, now I need to look at the available Danzig stallions and go from there, I suppose.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
First some background: The mare is Shesasassiedancer. We bred and raced her ourselves. Sassie has speed and talent and lots of heart and competitive spirit. She is a little on the shorter side but has good bone and is built solidly with good conformation. Despite one entire season with a nasty hoof abcess and another entire season with a gutteral pouch infection, she still managed to earn a couple of wins and a couple of places. We retired her just because she was getting a little older and we thought we'd find her a nice second career... she retired totally sound and had no issues; could have kept racing had we wanted her to.
We always offer trial periods with our OTTBs and take them back if they're not a perfect match, and after a couple of trial periods at different places, we have ended up with her back and do not feel that we can safely market her as a riding horse... so she is now going to enter the ranks of broodmare.
Although I don't pretend to be a pedigree expert, I see nothing wrong with her being bred to Indy Mood... the match seems fine to me. But, then I started thinking... most of our mares have been added to our band specifically for Indy Mood; this mare was not. I started to wonder if she matched really well with another bloodline AND the result was a filly, how would that filly THEN match with Indy Mood?
So, that brings me to three questions:
1. Going with the Danzig idea, what do you all think of her with Presidential Order?
2. How well might a filly out of Sassie and by Presidential Order match with Indy Mood down the road?
3. What is there to like or dislike about breeding Sassie to Indy Mood that I might be missing?
Considering another stallion seems not unlike cheating on a spouse, but I guess sometimes you have to be bold. If anyone wants to suggest any other stallions that would match well with her, I'm all ears... but I'll narrow it down by saying that I am breeding specifically for the Indiana Program, so if a stallion isn't Indiana Registered I'm not very interested.
OK, so what do you all think?
We always offer trial periods with our OTTBs and take them back if they're not a perfect match, and after a couple of trial periods at different places, we have ended up with her back and do not feel that we can safely market her as a riding horse... so she is now going to enter the ranks of broodmare.
Although I don't pretend to be a pedigree expert, I see nothing wrong with her being bred to Indy Mood... the match seems fine to me. But, then I started thinking... most of our mares have been added to our band specifically for Indy Mood; this mare was not. I started to wonder if she matched really well with another bloodline AND the result was a filly, how would that filly THEN match with Indy Mood?
So, that brings me to three questions:
1. Going with the Danzig idea, what do you all think of her with Presidential Order?
2. How well might a filly out of Sassie and by Presidential Order match with Indy Mood down the road?
3. What is there to like or dislike about breeding Sassie to Indy Mood that I might be missing?
Considering another stallion seems not unlike cheating on a spouse, but I guess sometimes you have to be bold. If anyone wants to suggest any other stallions that would match well with her, I'm all ears... but I'll narrow it down by saying that I am breeding specifically for the Indiana Program, so if a stallion isn't Indiana Registered I'm not very interested.
OK, so what do you all think?
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Rogue - One of Marshua Dancer's best foals/daughters was the very speedy race mare Marshua's Echelon. According to this db she was Marshua's Dancer's 4th most successful runner - with LTE in excess of $240K she led the list of Texas-breds in winnings until Groovy came along. She also proved fairly productive in the breeding shed and you might take a look at her offspring, all bred by her owner, a Texas based dedicated breed to race owner with a desire to breed a Ky Derby winner - and the means to do so - who also had a share in Theatrical.
1) her first foal by Icecapade, ECHELON's ICE MAN, was a MSP winner of $150k+, racing against the best 2YO company of his crop on the early Derby Trail until he bowed. He was brought back and bowed again - retired to stud in Texas where in hindsight (the LTE of his offspring are not up to date in this database) he was a somewhat useful stud for the breed to race owner with most of his offspring getting to the track and winning when most of his opportunities were with rather run of the mill mares. He now stands at La. Tech in Ruston. (Note - His original owner was an owner whose focus was racing, he only bred on Marshua's Echelon because she had been such a superior performer on the track and had the pedigree to give hope of great things to come, in line with is racing aspirations. He did not have a herd of mares to support any of her male offspring that went to stud and to my knowlege never bred a mare to a single one of these Marshua's Echelon sons).
2) her first filly was the successful race mare Lady Starlite by Risen Star.
3) She was also bred to Storm Cat and later Tale of The Cat - both efforst meeting with little success. Also to Northern Baby - a model of stamina/durability again with no real success but a durable useful type, and to Stravinsky (this latter was bred by owners of the mare subsequent to Marsha Echelon's sale by her original owner/breeder and/or his estate and though only a winner of minor amounts a decent sale filly resulted.)
4) later in her BM career she was mated to Theatrical three different times, producing three sons. Marquee Star - who raced in Texas at Allowance levels but showed enough talent prior to injury that his Texas trainer acquired him, stood him publicly with little outside patronage and since used him as a private farm stallion. (Marquee Star still has one runner that I see racing and winning/hitting the board in claimers here in Texas but I'm not sure that Marquee Star hasn't died some years ago?) Given very few opportunities he has produced some very durable runners from run of the mill mares; another Theatrical offspring is the very lightly raced Trifecta Scott (early career ending injury again) who stands this season in Indiana after a season (or two?) standing in Texas with little to no mare support or promotion and little reason for patronage at a time when the resident mare colony is being decimated. Given his abbreviated race career Trifecta Scott's biggest claim to being worthy of standing at stud is his G-1 winning full brother RUN MAN RUN. (Note - not knocking this stallion, he may be an outstanding physical specimen but I've not ever seen him and therefore to me he seems to stand on pedigree strength alone.) The latter offspring of Theatrical x Marsha's Echelon won the G-1 Malibu Stakes and in his very next out I believe was injured/had to be euthanized.
So the legacy of this particular Marshua's Dancer mare, one of his best runners and his very best daughter on the track is one of promise and disappointment when mated to some very good stallions. She wasn't the least bit unsound and these were all stallions who were first and foremost great race horses before they established their credentials in the breeding shed so I suspect that this is a case where the unsoundness is in part a product of their having inherited their dam's blinding speed and precocity, their sires' class in terms of racing abilities but couldn't stand up to being put to the test early in their development to fulfil the promise they showed in their training. Her foals were given the very best of care in Kentucky as foals/weanlings, etc. and trained under very good, top ranked trainers and had good jockeys aboard - at least early in their careers - so those factors are all in favor of her offspring succeeding....they did show promise in training of being superior runners but generally failed to survive early career ending injuries.
There appears to be a trend here of horses that showed real speed and precocity as runners but had brief careers and tended to unsoundness as far as their racing goes, However, the offspring of her colts that went to stud/are still at stud for the most part tended to produce rather durable products of a 'useful' nature from less than stellar mares and few opportunities. I thought it intriguing that this mare did so poorly in terms of durability when mated to Theatrical - known for a high percentage of runnners from foals/winners from runners and % of SW from runners. True her best offspring in terms of GSW was a son of Theatrical but he lived barely a month beyond his G-1 win, the only one of her offsping to suffer a life ending injury during their racing careers.
1) her first foal by Icecapade, ECHELON's ICE MAN, was a MSP winner of $150k+, racing against the best 2YO company of his crop on the early Derby Trail until he bowed. He was brought back and bowed again - retired to stud in Texas where in hindsight (the LTE of his offspring are not up to date in this database) he was a somewhat useful stud for the breed to race owner with most of his offspring getting to the track and winning when most of his opportunities were with rather run of the mill mares. He now stands at La. Tech in Ruston. (Note - His original owner was an owner whose focus was racing, he only bred on Marshua's Echelon because she had been such a superior performer on the track and had the pedigree to give hope of great things to come, in line with is racing aspirations. He did not have a herd of mares to support any of her male offspring that went to stud and to my knowlege never bred a mare to a single one of these Marshua's Echelon sons).
2) her first filly was the successful race mare Lady Starlite by Risen Star.
3) She was also bred to Storm Cat and later Tale of The Cat - both efforst meeting with little success. Also to Northern Baby - a model of stamina/durability again with no real success but a durable useful type, and to Stravinsky (this latter was bred by owners of the mare subsequent to Marsha Echelon's sale by her original owner/breeder and/or his estate and though only a winner of minor amounts a decent sale filly resulted.)
4) later in her BM career she was mated to Theatrical three different times, producing three sons. Marquee Star - who raced in Texas at Allowance levels but showed enough talent prior to injury that his Texas trainer acquired him, stood him publicly with little outside patronage and since used him as a private farm stallion. (Marquee Star still has one runner that I see racing and winning/hitting the board in claimers here in Texas but I'm not sure that Marquee Star hasn't died some years ago?) Given very few opportunities he has produced some very durable runners from run of the mill mares; another Theatrical offspring is the very lightly raced Trifecta Scott (early career ending injury again) who stands this season in Indiana after a season (or two?) standing in Texas with little to no mare support or promotion and little reason for patronage at a time when the resident mare colony is being decimated. Given his abbreviated race career Trifecta Scott's biggest claim to being worthy of standing at stud is his G-1 winning full brother RUN MAN RUN. (Note - not knocking this stallion, he may be an outstanding physical specimen but I've not ever seen him and therefore to me he seems to stand on pedigree strength alone.) The latter offspring of Theatrical x Marsha's Echelon won the G-1 Malibu Stakes and in his very next out I believe was injured/had to be euthanized.
So the legacy of this particular Marshua's Dancer mare, one of his best runners and his very best daughter on the track is one of promise and disappointment when mated to some very good stallions. She wasn't the least bit unsound and these were all stallions who were first and foremost great race horses before they established their credentials in the breeding shed so I suspect that this is a case where the unsoundness is in part a product of their having inherited their dam's blinding speed and precocity, their sires' class in terms of racing abilities but couldn't stand up to being put to the test early in their development to fulfil the promise they showed in their training. Her foals were given the very best of care in Kentucky as foals/weanlings, etc. and trained under very good, top ranked trainers and had good jockeys aboard - at least early in their careers - so those factors are all in favor of her offspring succeeding....they did show promise in training of being superior runners but generally failed to survive early career ending injuries.
There appears to be a trend here of horses that showed real speed and precocity as runners but had brief careers and tended to unsoundness as far as their racing goes, However, the offspring of her colts that went to stud/are still at stud for the most part tended to produce rather durable products of a 'useful' nature from less than stellar mares and few opportunities. I thought it intriguing that this mare did so poorly in terms of durability when mated to Theatrical - known for a high percentage of runnners from foals/winners from runners and % of SW from runners. True her best offspring in terms of GSW was a son of Theatrical but he lived barely a month beyond his G-1 win, the only one of her offsping to suffer a life ending injury during their racing careers.
And just when I thought nobody cared... 
Jellac, your posts are always so informative and well thought-out, and I thank you for taking the time to comment on this. I did some quick checking, and I didn't see any Risen Star stallions in Indiana. I did, however, find the following stallions that are along the lines you mentioned in your post:
Fort Stanton (son of Nureyeve)
Trifecta Scott (you mentioned, son of Theatrical)
Dramatic Irony (son of Theatrical)
Charmin' Merlin (son of Clever Trick - Icecapade)
Wild Zone (son of Wild Again - Icecapade)
Unfortunately, I don't personally know the connections of any of these stallions, nor have I ever seen any of them in person, nor do I know much of anything about them... including, in most cases, whether they are even still standing here. Would you be more inclined to consider someone from this group over a Danzig son or over Indy Mood?
Thanks again for your response... I have a bit to think about over the next couple of weeks on this, whether I want to breed her to "someone else" or not, and if I do, what's the best match, what might that do for me down the road, etc... I greatly appreciate the help in figuring it all out.
Incidentally and on a side note, Sassie is a daughter of Daufuskie Pirate, who is the stallion who saved his owner's life when she was attacked by their other stallion, Aly T. DP has very few offspring and has since passed, but the offspring he DOES have are, for the most part, a rather talented group of horses. It's a shame he died early and didn't have better support when he was alive; he would likely have been a useful sire given half a chance.
Jellac, your posts are always so informative and well thought-out, and I thank you for taking the time to comment on this. I did some quick checking, and I didn't see any Risen Star stallions in Indiana. I did, however, find the following stallions that are along the lines you mentioned in your post:
Fort Stanton (son of Nureyeve)
Trifecta Scott (you mentioned, son of Theatrical)
Dramatic Irony (son of Theatrical)
Charmin' Merlin (son of Clever Trick - Icecapade)
Wild Zone (son of Wild Again - Icecapade)
Unfortunately, I don't personally know the connections of any of these stallions, nor have I ever seen any of them in person, nor do I know much of anything about them... including, in most cases, whether they are even still standing here. Would you be more inclined to consider someone from this group over a Danzig son or over Indy Mood?
Thanks again for your response... I have a bit to think about over the next couple of weeks on this, whether I want to breed her to "someone else" or not, and if I do, what's the best match, what might that do for me down the road, etc... I greatly appreciate the help in figuring it all out.
Incidentally and on a side note, Sassie is a daughter of Daufuskie Pirate, who is the stallion who saved his owner's life when she was attacked by their other stallion, Aly T. DP has very few offspring and has since passed, but the offspring he DOES have are, for the most part, a rather talented group of horses. It's a shame he died early and didn't have better support when he was alive; he would likely have been a useful sire given half a chance.
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
Well Rogue - I was so pleased by your compliment I drafted another well thought out response to your question "Theatrical" vs. "Danzig" for your Marshua's Dancer mare. Problem is I have no idea where that post went after I hit "Submit".....so here's the short version -
No, I wouldn't recommend a son of Theatrical over the obvious statistical preference for Danzig/Danzig line stallions by Marshua's Dancer daughters per G-1 Goldmine data. One mare tried 3x to a son of Theatrical with two shortened careers/no GS attempted and one G-1 winner who subsequently suffered a life ending injury doesn't make me want to try any of his sons with this mare. In fact Theatrical is something of a conundrum as a top flight sire of race horses - he doesn't do well as a sire of sires. So IF I were to seriously consider this cross - it would be to Theatrical himself. His fee is down, he doesn't see as many mares (perhaps he's better managed for longevity of stud career than these poor stallions who see near 200 mares a season...or it could be age/fertility. I haven't heard of his having any issues but I'd want to check it out. Then I'd see if I couldn't find a season for a discounted cash price or a donated season on an auction? I might go check out Trifecta Scott to see what at least one example of this cross looks like....since he is in Indiana....
But reality check is I'd spend more of my resources/time in trying to find a really good, proven Danzig sireline stallion that improves his mares and is thought to produce for the most part well conformed/sound individuals (Note - Danzig himself had an injury shortened career BUT many of his best runners were pretty durable by today's standards....). Short of finding such a "Danzig" I'd also be on the lookout for a good proven producer of runners/winners/SWs and durable runners from the Icecapade line......
No, I wouldn't recommend a son of Theatrical over the obvious statistical preference for Danzig/Danzig line stallions by Marshua's Dancer daughters per G-1 Goldmine data. One mare tried 3x to a son of Theatrical with two shortened careers/no GS attempted and one G-1 winner who subsequently suffered a life ending injury doesn't make me want to try any of his sons with this mare. In fact Theatrical is something of a conundrum as a top flight sire of race horses - he doesn't do well as a sire of sires. So IF I were to seriously consider this cross - it would be to Theatrical himself. His fee is down, he doesn't see as many mares (perhaps he's better managed for longevity of stud career than these poor stallions who see near 200 mares a season...or it could be age/fertility. I haven't heard of his having any issues but I'd want to check it out. Then I'd see if I couldn't find a season for a discounted cash price or a donated season on an auction? I might go check out Trifecta Scott to see what at least one example of this cross looks like....since he is in Indiana....
But reality check is I'd spend more of my resources/time in trying to find a really good, proven Danzig sireline stallion that improves his mares and is thought to produce for the most part well conformed/sound individuals (Note - Danzig himself had an injury shortened career BUT many of his best runners were pretty durable by today's standards....). Short of finding such a "Danzig" I'd also be on the lookout for a good proven producer of runners/winners/SWs and durable runners from the Icecapade line......
Thank you, jellac, again! I really appreciate the thought you've put into this.
I am considering taking Shesasassiedancer to Presidential Order based in large part on the information in this thread.
I would love to hear opinions on that cross from anyone who has one and is willing to share...
I am considering taking Shesasassiedancer to Presidential Order based in large part on the information in this thread.
I would love to hear opinions on that cross from anyone who has one and is willing to share...
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"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'
"Don't be a boorish buffoon" -Hokies Respect 'Jerk Alert'