Would you breed your mare to??????
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highbritesboy
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Would you breed your mare to??????
I have a stallion who has great bloodlines and money earning siblings but just not proven himself on the track. Would you breed your mare if it was free so that I could make a name for him?????
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highbritesboy
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The three considerations/aspects/selling points of a stallion are:
Race record
Pedigree
Conformation
Many people who want to start their own stallions buy mares specifically for the stallion, whose pedigrees and conformation compliment the stallion's. It is hard to promote an unraced stallion and many folks invest 4-5 years into proving those foals & their sire are worthy of being bred. Even if you get the foals, they still have to make it to the races and start their careers, which takes 4-6 months and ties up $5k - 7500 in training fees, shoes, tattooing, vet bill for the inevitable snots...
Just some things to take into consideration. If you are in a position to get the mares (and starting free is your best bet) and train the foals yourself that is a good start.
Race record
Pedigree
Conformation
Many people who want to start their own stallions buy mares specifically for the stallion, whose pedigrees and conformation compliment the stallion's. It is hard to promote an unraced stallion and many folks invest 4-5 years into proving those foals & their sire are worthy of being bred. Even if you get the foals, they still have to make it to the races and start their careers, which takes 4-6 months and ties up $5k - 7500 in training fees, shoes, tattooing, vet bill for the inevitable snots...
Just some things to take into consideration. If you are in a position to get the mares (and starting free is your best bet) and train the foals yourself that is a good start.
No. I would not breed to your stallion for free so that YOU could make a name for him. I also will hazard a guess that the kind of mares you are likely to get from owners who can only breed for free are not LIKELY to make a name for him. I would breed to him for free only if there was something in it for ME. After all, I've got all the OTHER costs to bear.
Stud fee is only a small part of the cost of breeding and raising a race horse. It is important only insomuch as is relates to the value of the mare and the overall value of the foal.
Stud fee is only a small part of the cost of breeding and raising a race horse. It is important only insomuch as is relates to the value of the mare and the overall value of the foal.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
This is how the math works out from a mare owner's point of view:
The cost of keeping my mares in Kentucky runs about $12,000 per mare, per year. If I breed a mare to a $30,000 stallion and a nice foal, chances are I can sell that foal for $75-100,000 and break even or make a little money. If I breed that same mare to a free stallion that no one has ever heard of and get a nice foal, I might be able to sell it for $5,000. While you have much to gain by my breeding my mare to your stallion, for me it is a losing proposition.
The cost of keeping my mares in Kentucky runs about $12,000 per mare, per year. If I breed a mare to a $30,000 stallion and a nice foal, chances are I can sell that foal for $75-100,000 and break even or make a little money. If I breed that same mare to a free stallion that no one has ever heard of and get a nice foal, I might be able to sell it for $5,000. While you have much to gain by my breeding my mare to your stallion, for me it is a losing proposition.
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Sock Monkey
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The ONLY way I would breed a mare to such a stallion is if it were free. Of course, I would hope you would advertise a fee of $1,500 or so, but I certainly wouldn't pay that.
And, to be honest, the only mare that I would send your way would be a cheap, but nice, mare that I was hoping to either a: sell in foal, b: chase breeders' awards with or c: breed to race. I would also have to really love your stallion and feel they were a great physical matchup.
If you're going to stand this stallion, I think you're on the right track in offering comp seasons - you can do it with some discrimination, but be realisitic. If I contacted you about your stallion and you asked me if my mare was a stakes winner or stakes producer, I'd fall out of my chair laughing. Stakes winners and producers can get deals to proven stallions and commerical stallions and that's where the smart money will take them. But, for me, unless a mare is truly commercial, I'm not going to spend a fortune on stud fees. And, let's face it - truly commercial and a good race broodmare don't always go hand in hand. So, there are decent mares out there looking for a cheap date. That said, there are also a lot of cheap mares out there owned by cheap owners looking to do things as cheaply as possible and the foal is going to suffer. That's where the discriminating part comes in.
From a mare owner's perspective - be humble. Promote the heck out of your stallion, but suck up to the mare owners and try to make it work for both of you. Don't get greedy at this point and be sympathetic to the fact that the mare owner is the one taking the gamble and is the one facing an uphill battle.
One thing I've heard from stallion owners that just doesn't make sense to me: "people who won't pay a stud fee won't take care of the foal." To me, that's BS. Like others have said, the fee is only a portion of the costs - it's not like raising a foal is free except for the stud fee. A better way to determine if people are going to do right by a foal is by the condition of their mares, if they balk at a culture, etc.
Good luck with him!
And, to be honest, the only mare that I would send your way would be a cheap, but nice, mare that I was hoping to either a: sell in foal, b: chase breeders' awards with or c: breed to race. I would also have to really love your stallion and feel they were a great physical matchup.
If you're going to stand this stallion, I think you're on the right track in offering comp seasons - you can do it with some discrimination, but be realisitic. If I contacted you about your stallion and you asked me if my mare was a stakes winner or stakes producer, I'd fall out of my chair laughing. Stakes winners and producers can get deals to proven stallions and commerical stallions and that's where the smart money will take them. But, for me, unless a mare is truly commercial, I'm not going to spend a fortune on stud fees. And, let's face it - truly commercial and a good race broodmare don't always go hand in hand. So, there are decent mares out there looking for a cheap date. That said, there are also a lot of cheap mares out there owned by cheap owners looking to do things as cheaply as possible and the foal is going to suffer. That's where the discriminating part comes in.
From a mare owner's perspective - be humble. Promote the heck out of your stallion, but suck up to the mare owners and try to make it work for both of you. Don't get greedy at this point and be sympathetic to the fact that the mare owner is the one taking the gamble and is the one facing an uphill battle.
One thing I've heard from stallion owners that just doesn't make sense to me: "people who won't pay a stud fee won't take care of the foal." To me, that's BS. Like others have said, the fee is only a portion of the costs - it's not like raising a foal is free except for the stud fee. A better way to determine if people are going to do right by a foal is by the condition of their mares, if they balk at a culture, etc.
Good luck with him!
Sock Monkey wrote:.......One thing I've heard from stallion owners that just doesn't make sense to me: "people who won't pay a stud fee won't take care of the foal." To me, that's BS. Like others have said, the fee is only a portion of the costs - it's not like raising a foal is free except for the stud fee. A better way to determine if people are going to do right by a foal is by the condition of their mares, if they balk at a culture, etc....
Perhaps it is more like "people who CAN'T pay a stud fee" CAN'T take care of the foal. It sometimes seems that the folks always doing EVERYTHING on the cheap can make a stakes potential foal into a cheap claimer.
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....
Sock Monkey wrote:But, for me, unless a mare is truly commercial, I'm not going to spend a fortune on stud fees. And, let's face it - truly commercial and a good race broodmare don't always go hand in hand. So, there are decent mares out there looking for a cheap date. That said, there are also a lot of cheap mares out there owned by cheap owners looking to do things as cheaply as possible and the foal is going to suffer. That's where the discriminating part comes in.
Again, I agree. Such good advice & SO true.
Just to put that "I agree" into perspective - we have a graded stakes winning, grade-one performing, stallion who stayed sound enough to have 49 starts & earn more than $400,000 who stood his first season in 2007 & we're eagerly awaiting the arrival of his first foals, probably next month. So, basically I'm just a few steps farther down this road you also want to travel.
It's fair to say I didn't know lots of this stuff 2 years ago when we decided to stand the stallion but I DID quickly figure out that the cost to promote a stallion was so high & the number of OTHER stallions competing for a few mares was so great that I didn't have the money to compete on that level. I had to put my money into just a few 'right for him' mares to get racehorses out there to prove him. I study pedigree, performance, a mare's success at sales & only go see a mare after hours of research -- at which point my husband, the conformation expert, takes one look at her & knocks her off the list completely.
When we agree on a mare, we then are sometimes stopped by price. Thank God for those hardknocking racemares with unfashionable pedigrees who are compatible with this particular horse because we will breed them to race & often breed out the mares who are arguably commercial to help support our habit. The trick still is to buy only the ones for which HE is 'the right opportunity' -- whim purchases still cost a lot to support.
Even if you offer your stallion for free, you need to be discriminating about the mares you'll breed and may have to politely decline, or suggest the mare owner try a different stallion, if you want to help the good reputation you are trying to build for your stallion.
The bottom line - no matter whether you start with a proven race horse or one without a performance record but in whom you believe, it's still a very long, hard road.
I won't say, "Don't do it." [That would just be hypocritical]
But in the years I've lurked & then posted here, I've seen lots of individuals take the plunge into owning a stallion or mares due to their love of racehorses only to bail out a year or so later, not having looked far enough down the road to see the costs, or far enough past a pretty equine face to see the lack of talent or marketability. Or both.
Their horses start out for sale, then on sale, then free, and often finally, in rescue. Again, I don't say "Don't do this!" I just ask on behalf of the horses, that you make sure you've got a good handle on the costs & a good business plan to get from here to your goal.
Most of the folks who have responded to your original post have watched this, too, and are giving you really good advice to help you avoid that slippery slope.
Best of luck to you!
Which begs a question maybe some of you can help me answer:
You own a colt that you really like, REALLY like, well bred and super fast, but couldn't carry the distance and was a minor winner of a few races. No stakes or anything fancy mind you, just a sound sorta fella who raced 30 or so times in 3 years (2-3-4) and won 5 or so races (80-90k)... but you love him anyway... now lets say you own a well bred unraced or lightly raced mare (never won) who showed some promise.
You have an itch to breed the two they match up well. How is it done? Your horse doesn't stand anywhere, you dont own a stud farm, but you wanna cover your mare just this once for sentimental reasons. How do you go about it?
You own a colt that you really like, REALLY like, well bred and super fast, but couldn't carry the distance and was a minor winner of a few races. No stakes or anything fancy mind you, just a sound sorta fella who raced 30 or so times in 3 years (2-3-4) and won 5 or so races (80-90k)... but you love him anyway... now lets say you own a well bred unraced or lightly raced mare (never won) who showed some promise.
You have an itch to breed the two they match up well. How is it done? Your horse doesn't stand anywhere, you dont own a stud farm, but you wanna cover your mare just this once for sentimental reasons. How do you go about it?
Hi Dray --
I don't know about elsewhere, but if you wanted a PA-bred, it would be more a question of how much you wanted to spend than how to do it. I think the requirements for the MARE to stay in PA are more stringent than the requirements on the stallion. And mare care would be most of your costs.
You could contact the PA Horse Breeders' Assn. for the rules on the stallion, but I THINK you (a) join the PA HBA for $65/yr; (b) move the stallion to PA & register him as a PA stallion @ $50/lifetime [unless he leaves the state, at which point he needs to be re-registered]. I don't think there's a minimum amount of time he needs to be here, either before or after he breeds, so long as he doesn't move to another state TO BREED in the same breeding season. But ask the PA HBA about that, because I haven't looked into it closely & it's probably not a question they're asked, much.
I'll assume the mare's a maiden. Bring her into the state before Oct. 1st, breed her & board her in PA until she foals the next year & you've got a PA-bred, PA-sired foal for whom you get the breeder's money, the sire money & if you race it yourself for old time's sake, the owner's money. [If she's in foal when she arrives, the foal will also be a PA-bred because you'll be breeding back to your very own PA sire.]
And if it were me & I was planning to do this, I'd probably find a boarding facility that I trusted that will ship the mare to New Bolton for you [because while I'm going to suggest the mare go to New Bolton to be bred & boarding near New Bolton can be pretty pricey]. I suggest New Bolton for 2 reasons: (1) Because they are very good at working with maiden stallions & mares & you want to set the 2 up for success; and (2) they are respected & since someone will have to sign to say that the foal was conceived in PA, who better than New Bolton?
BUT there are stallion managers elsewhere & you may find someone else in PA who can take the stallion short-term, take the mare long-term & sign the requisite papers.
If you don't care about any state-bred requirements, you can take your mare & stallion pretty much anywhere there's a good reproductive specialist to help explain the birds & the bees & sign the JC paperwork as the stallion & mare owner yourself.
I don't know about elsewhere, but if you wanted a PA-bred, it would be more a question of how much you wanted to spend than how to do it. I think the requirements for the MARE to stay in PA are more stringent than the requirements on the stallion. And mare care would be most of your costs.
You could contact the PA Horse Breeders' Assn. for the rules on the stallion, but I THINK you (a) join the PA HBA for $65/yr; (b) move the stallion to PA & register him as a PA stallion @ $50/lifetime [unless he leaves the state, at which point he needs to be re-registered]. I don't think there's a minimum amount of time he needs to be here, either before or after he breeds, so long as he doesn't move to another state TO BREED in the same breeding season. But ask the PA HBA about that, because I haven't looked into it closely & it's probably not a question they're asked, much.
I'll assume the mare's a maiden. Bring her into the state before Oct. 1st, breed her & board her in PA until she foals the next year & you've got a PA-bred, PA-sired foal for whom you get the breeder's money, the sire money & if you race it yourself for old time's sake, the owner's money. [If she's in foal when she arrives, the foal will also be a PA-bred because you'll be breeding back to your very own PA sire.]
And if it were me & I was planning to do this, I'd probably find a boarding facility that I trusted that will ship the mare to New Bolton for you [because while I'm going to suggest the mare go to New Bolton to be bred & boarding near New Bolton can be pretty pricey]. I suggest New Bolton for 2 reasons: (1) Because they are very good at working with maiden stallions & mares & you want to set the 2 up for success; and (2) they are respected & since someone will have to sign to say that the foal was conceived in PA, who better than New Bolton?
BUT there are stallion managers elsewhere & you may find someone else in PA who can take the stallion short-term, take the mare long-term & sign the requisite papers.
If you don't care about any state-bred requirements, you can take your mare & stallion pretty much anywhere there's a good reproductive specialist to help explain the birds & the bees & sign the JC paperwork as the stallion & mare owner yourself.
Thank you for the reply KBE.
If it were a "one shot deal" (wherever it is done) let's say I agree to board the mare at the facility... how much does it cost to have them take my "colt" and help get the mare in foal? And is it "legal" in the eyes of the Jockey Club? Remember... he is not a real stallion, no one would know who he is. But I would want to race the resulting foal.
If it were a "one shot deal" (wherever it is done) let's say I agree to board the mare at the facility... how much does it cost to have them take my "colt" and help get the mare in foal? And is it "legal" in the eyes of the Jockey Club? Remember... he is not a real stallion, no one would know who he is. But I would want to race the resulting foal.
dray33 wrote:If it were a "one shot deal" (wherever it is done) let's say I agree to board the mare at the facility... how much does it cost to have them take my "colt" and help get the mare in foal? And is it "legal" in the eyes of the Jockey Club? Remember... he is not a real stallion, no one would know who he is. But I would want to race the resulting foal.
1. You call the farm where the mare currently resides and propose the idea. Since they also stand stallions, they could make this happen--if they choose to.
2.You tell them to name their price.
3. Farm tries vehemently to talk you out of it. Among the things to consider: it will be much safer for both your young horses if the first-time stallion does not learn his job with a semi-inexperienced mare. You stand firm--tell them to teach the stallion on their placid, old teaching mare.
3. You tell them to name their price.
4. They refuse on principle--and say it's breeding season and they're too busy to fool around with a scheme like that.
5. You offer enough money to make it worth their while.
6. They agree.
7. The JC doesn't care who the parents are as long as both are JC registered and DNA typed.
Again, it's all about the dineros.