The Game Stallion Issue

Discussion and analysis of thoroughbred stallions.

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westover
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Postby westover » Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:49 pm

Well i don't know where to start..lol i'm scared!!!lol

I understand your frustration & i do feel for you. However, i don't think you can over look horses like Bold Executive, i do feel he is over priced at $15,000 & yes he didn't have any superstars last year.. but he has done really well for Ontario. I understand you feel over looked & it is a shame that the Game didn't list all the stallions. I think you have to give stallion shoppers more credit. I know when i speak with a representative from these bigger farms that well yes they are going to try to sell me on the positives of breeding to their stallion. I can see throught that & i go there having done all of my homework. It doesn't take much to do the home work on the stallions you are looking at, as everything is available to you. I will never breed too something i cannot look at, geography will never stop me. People take a while to look outside the box. But not all of your audience is uneducated. There tends to be one set of connections that inflate the price of some of our Regional Progeny. I think we covered that in another post. There have been some terrific race horses to come out of Ontario via Ontario stallions. That said i did find this a tough year to make a decision, ie: my post that everyone so kindly answered!! As breeders the one thing i feel is absolutely imparative is that you/me everyone has to be very crital & realistic about there own stock, whether it be stallions, mares, yearlings.
Keep plugging away people take a while with change.. :wink:
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AscotStud
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Postby AscotStud » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:07 pm

Westover...I'll be kind...I tried to keep my mouth shut...but the exclusion really got to me. I try not to knock other peoples horses, but Bold Executive is a horse that I feel is a product of people just going to who had the most winners and is the most expensive sire. He has had 1 or 2 horses that I have really thought were better than your average Ontario Sired horse and Legal Move did a great job of proving that last weekend in a non Graded race at Fair Grounds. Like I said not everyone is clueless and it was not directed at some people who I think are very sharp. But from what I have seen and heard from more than just some people in the industry, there are many misguided souls out there. and some of the quotes I've heard from some of the articles in that issue, there will be many people who believe that rubbish.

Ascot Knight could get you twice the horse Bold Executive could but somehow in Ontario his fee plunged and mares dried up and Bold Executive continues to look like a superstar.

The sad truth is that people who take the time to look into and pick a stallion are few. I hear so and so sad I should breed my mare to so and so because insert your reason to make the breeder warm and fuzzy, all the time. That's why being excluded in an issue such as that one is a major blow because out of sight out of mind...that exclusion could be the difference between thousands of dollars we could have brought in this year.
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westover
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Postby westover » Wed Feb 13, 2008 6:49 am

I do understand what your saying, but i was one of those people who still felt that Ascot Knight was top of the heap. We had an Ascot Knight filly two years ago who was beautiful, he bred around 7 mares that year i believe, we were one of them. Its like i said people are fickle and they get stuck in their own trains of thought and i agree with you i hear people say it all the time "so and so said". I am a person who does all my own leg work. As racing is not my background i work twice as hard to educated myself.. and it doesn't hurt that i live with a good trainer, sometimes his thoughts help and sometimes they don't.

I always look at the big picture & don't just breed a mare to a stallion for commercial reasons. It is always in the back of my mind, would this make a race horse. I was at Airdrie in September and had them bring out Slew City Slew, i love that horse & feel he produces race horses and he is good value for the money.

I have friends in the industry and some are swayed very easily by stats, #'s etc.. i need to see the whole picture, i do feel there are a number of people who are like me & try to get the whole picture. I just didn't want you to paint the whole bunch bad. As i answer to owners (my bosses) there are times when i have to lean toward the commercial side as i have to know it will sell & hopefully well. This year we have 2 Ontario sired yearlings. One by Peaks and Valleys & one by Cats at Home.

We have a Perfect Soul ready to drop that was in the mare when we purchased her a few weeks ago. The mare will go back to Trajectory as you know from my other post. We have a Regal Classic mare who is in Kentucky being bred to E Dubai, we had a Toccet yearling sell from her last September. I look at Ontario and i look at the U.S. The bottom line is its business.. & nothing personal. I agree the attitude is sometimes out of whack.. but you have to forge ahead as sooner or later people turn a corner & when they do your own stallion may be the one they turn too.
I do understand the exclusion hurting you as you support the industry well and its a bit of a slap in the face. Why don't you write or call them? I would but i am like that lol and i usually get this reaction - :shock:

i'm late for an appt. so forgive me not spell check.. :)
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Daisy Jal Dastur
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Postby Daisy Jal Dastur » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:08 am

AscotStud wrote:Westover...I'll be kind...I tried to keep my mouth shut...but the exclusion really got to me. I try not to knock other peoples horses, but Bold Executive is a horse that I feel is a product of people just going to who had the most winners and is the most expensive sire. He has had 1 or 2 horses that I have really thought were better than your average Ontario Sired horse and Legal Move did a great job of proving that last weekend in a non Graded race at Fair Grounds. Like I said not everyone is clueless and it was not directed at some people who I think are very sharp. But from what I have seen and heard from more than just some people in the industry, there are many misguided souls out there. and some of the quotes I've heard from some of the articles in that issue, there will be many people who believe that rubbish.

Ascot Knight could get you twice the horse Bold Executive could but somehow in Ontario his fee plunged and mares dried up and Bold Executive continues to look like a superstar.

The sad truth is that people who take the time to look into and pick a stallion are few. I hear so and so sad I should breed my mare to so and so because insert your reason to make the breeder warm and fuzzy, all the time. That's why being excluded in an issue such as that one is a major blow because out of sight out of mind...that exclusion could be the difference between thousands of dollars we could have brought in this year.


I totally understand and support your view. I saw the latest Game and was surprised to not see anything significant for Impeachement (I really like him!!) Unfortunately, there are a lot of breeders out there that just kinda 'go with the flow', rather than do proper research and pick a stallion that complemnts their mare. To this day, I strongly feel that Ascot Knight was one of the best sires we've had in Ontario/Canada in recent memory. His horses performed well, regardless of where they raced and he's also turning out to be a nice broodmare sire. For some rediculos reason, the 'popular' sires out there are the 'local sprinter' types, while classic/turf inclined horses like Ascot Knight were being ignored. When has a Bold Executive or Bold N Flashy won the Queen's Plate?? I would live to see an ontario-sired horse win the race (westover knows what I mean! :lol: ), but I'm not holding my breath on that one!

You have some very nice and exciting sires that should attract attention, and I really hope that people are not too swayed by reading the Game!

Good luck!

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Jenny
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Postby Jenny » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:42 am

do you know who I really liked in Ontario. I have one of the last 3 year olds by him in Ontario. War Deputy. he threw runners. I don't know one horse he sired who could not run. Loved him and love my gelding. But his numbers declined and he got shipped to Greece. Since when do they have a breeding program? Poor bugger, God knows where he is. If you wanted to breed to race he was your man!! So we will see how mine does this year. This thread just keeps going :!:

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madelyn
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Postby madelyn » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:57 am

I love Tejano Run. I wonder if there is a bias there against horses who shipped in after their stud career started elsewhere?
So Run for the Roses, as fast as you can.....

westover
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Postby westover » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:02 am

I really like Tejano Run & i think i mentioned in my quest for an Ontario sire, that i sat with the Vinery people at the Sovereigns and they felt he is so under-rated. It is frustrating that people go with what is popular, as they don't look at the big picture. A good example of this is Langhfur, he just is not a commercial sire but if you want a race horse man he can produce runners. I watched his races a few days back, the met mile & the vosburgh. He beat some really good horses Elusive Quality for one, Honour & Glory etc.. i was really disappointed that Wando didn't stay here. I realize their feeling was that they would be pitting their own two stallions against each other to compete for mares but he would have been a terrific addition to Ontario. I love Mobil but i am not nuts about his conformation & he did not have the speed Wando did.

I see it a lot from where i sit mares going to the "Hot" stallion. I know of a really nice filly who raced here and in the U.s. she is by Storm Cat (she won around $500,000) she was sent to a freshman who is really hot, she is a maiden & these people do not breed to sell, they breed to race. I thought that really really odd. To take a maiden mare of that calibre and send her to an unproven freshman (albeit a really nice freshman, but still)
I would have wanted to take her to the older proven guy especially as this barn breeds strictly to race. My husband has an Ascot Knight Colt in his barn & he loves him. I agree he really was just an amazing horse.. all the way around.
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Avila Acres
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Postby Avila Acres » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:08 am

madelyn wrote:I love Tejano Run. I wonder if there is a bias there against horses who shipped in after their stud career started elsewhere?


I think that might be the case with TR. I really like Impeachment and bred one of my mares to him last year. I'm still new to this business, but it does seem to me that there is a leaning towards the stallions at the big name farms in and around Toronto - I call them the "establishment". I guess that's to be expected for a number of reasons but one being the simple fact that they have the financial resources to make their voices heard louder than everyone else and can send so many quality mares to their stallions, thus influencing the stats in their favour. As for the rest of us in the "regional markets" of the regional market of Ontario, it's an uphill battle.
Mary & Dave

westover
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Postby westover » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:15 am

Since you all love an underdog story, i thought you would get a real kick out of this.

My husband is a trainer and i work for a small farm, we breed 2 or 3 horses a year and sell them as yearlings. A number of years ago we purchased a mare in the U.S. from the Franks Farm dispersal. The mare was in foal to Lost Soldier (who is another stallion i really like). We paid $2700. for the mare in foal. Brought her back here, foaled her out and were thrilled when she got into the select sale. She sold & went to a good trainer so we were thrilled. Last summer she ran in a race against a filly :shock: from my husbands barn, our filly as a yearling sold for 12,000. The filly my husbands barn had in the race was purchased for $500,000 u.s.). We watched the race together my husband & i, his filly was 5th, ours was 6th, they were side by side. We don't watch conflicting horses together anymore..lol Actually he is a good sport about it. Their filly did go on to run in better races and ours was dropped down so she could break her maiden but it will be interesting this season to see where they both end up.
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AscotStud
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Postby AscotStud » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:32 am

thanks Daisy, we liked Impeachment enough to buy him from Dogwood after having him at our farm for a year. He will never breed a big book, but if he continues to get around 30 a year hopefully he will turn into a solid "cheaper" sire. He's still pretty young and we should have fun watching his babies run over the years.
I don't know if it is because Chris and I didn't have family or friends in the business to sway the way we think. But I really think it's harder for me to accept some of the odd trends associated with this industry. No other business in the world would be run the way some people run their breeding/racing business.

Westover, I think you took my rant a little too literally. There was a lot of sarcasm in the original post. I also guarantee you for every person that does their homework like you do and everyone else who comes to this site to learn as much as possible about not only Ontario but the world of horse racing and breeding, there are 3 who are clueless. Trust me we get the calls, we get the emails asking for $1,000 stud fees, I could write a book about the first 2 years I was there answering phones.

Madalyn, I don't think people have a big bias against those horses. They just think that they have to breed to the next horse that comes along. We benefited from it also. TR bred 53 his first year with us. 30 more than the year before in Kentucky. He lost almost 1/2 the mares last year...after having his best year at stud??? The #1 reason people didn't come back was because they wanted to go to the "new" stallion, that everyone else went to. Even though "the foal was the best the mare has produced so far". He has 2 running in Stakes this Saturday, one of them is out of a mare we are waiting to drop a TR foal in the next couple weeks...more blacktype for the filly would be nice.

MINNOW, is that 450 at WO so far???

I think I got to everyone in this one.
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AscotStud
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Postby AscotStud » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:41 am

Avila, I agree 100%, Chris and I knew full well that we were going to loose probably 10-20 mares a year because of our location and because we don't have "clients". The people who breed to our guys WANT to come, which i wouldn't want any other way. We try to let our adds do the talking...we try to breed horses, not B.S.

Westover, We were at Woodbine last year (I think) for a race and I just happened to flip over to Arlington in the Form. There was a race that had a horse by TR, Impeachment and our teaser Exetera in it. The Exetera finished ahead of the Impeach who beat the TR. We thought it was pretty funny.
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westover
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Postby westover » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:52 am

I actually kind of liked your rant..lol i just feel bad for you thats all.. that is a good laugh.. re: the teaser.. my husband and i being in the same industry, but at times having the odd conflict it makes for some interesting dinner conversation..lol

I couldn't stomach those idiotic calls.. see i would be the worst person as i would say something really bad like "well why don't you go down the road to the neighbours welsh pony.. he is a $1000,"lol that would be fun actually.

tee hee :shock:
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MINNOW
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Postby MINNOW » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:26 pm

Ascot,
That was Fort Erie,The racing director said it was about normal,my husband has to go down again on Friday.I want to move locations and be put on the inside,we find the horses can't relax enough on the main road,delivery vans,garbage trucks ,ect,ect,
We will be taking twelve in to the track this year,I can't wait as I have high hopes they are all training great and the riders are continuing on with them at the track.They think we have some that could run at Woodbine,let's hope they are right.My mare in foal to Impeachment just had her last shot,won't be long now and we will be inlaws, :lol: :lol: :lol: you will have to come to the christening :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Postby AscotStud » Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:14 pm

Big day for Tejano Run today, Fleet Caroline (whose mare we own) won the Sun City Stakes by 3 1/4 and Prorunner ran 2nd in the Turf Paradise Handicap beat only 1/2 length. I think I will have a drink or two to celebrate.
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westover
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Postby westover » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:10 pm

Yay that is great.. think i will have a drink too as i will look for any reason to celebrate!!! Congratulations. :) :D
Horse Radish