Jazil....is he for real
Moderators: Roguelet, WaveMaster, madelyn
Jazil....is he for real
Anybody as high on this horse as me. I can't seem to impress my boss. Any input? Help please.
I think he's way overpriced.
Commercially, he will be a bust due to his small size (height and build). Buyers hate that. Plus, he will be poo-pooed because he was a stayer and this country is obsessed with brillant speed.
Like you, we are also quite interested in him but we breed to race. So there you have it.
If he was standing for $5000 then it would be a no brainer but it's not like Seeking the Gold sons are lighten it up at stud. Too big of a risk for that stud fee.
For $12,500 I could go to Mutakddim, Sky Classic, Slew City Slew, etc...in other words, more proven stallions.
I LOVE his female family (of course, any pedigree with Blushing Groom through a daughter makes me sit up and take notice: favorite all-time stallion) but wish the family had produced more *sires* not just graded stakes winners-big difference.
Love the stamina influence as it is much needed in this country.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that he drops in a few years and breed to him then when the risk is more manageable.
Just my two cents....
Commercially, he will be a bust due to his small size (height and build). Buyers hate that. Plus, he will be poo-pooed because he was a stayer and this country is obsessed with brillant speed.
Like you, we are also quite interested in him but we breed to race. So there you have it.
If he was standing for $5000 then it would be a no brainer but it's not like Seeking the Gold sons are lighten it up at stud. Too big of a risk for that stud fee.
For $12,500 I could go to Mutakddim, Sky Classic, Slew City Slew, etc...in other words, more proven stallions.
I LOVE his female family (of course, any pedigree with Blushing Groom through a daughter makes me sit up and take notice: favorite all-time stallion) but wish the family had produced more *sires* not just graded stakes winners-big difference.
Love the stamina influence as it is much needed in this country.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that he drops in a few years and breed to him then when the risk is more manageable.
Just my two cents....
pokeyman wrote:Plus, he will be poo-pooed because he was a stayer and this country is obsessed with brillant speed.
I think "plodder" is more the term I would use -- after all, A.P. Indy, Thunder Gulch, and Point Given were all Belmont winners too, and breeders haven't shied away from them. Aside from the small-size issue (a valid point, at least as far as commercial breeders are concerned), Jazil never won at less than a mile and one-sixteenth and was never any threat to the winner in the nine-furlong Wood Memorial, his only other stakes placing. He was, IMO, a grinding type devoid of tactical speed at any distance. Stamina is hardly anathema to American breeders, but stamina without any hint of the ability to transmit speed sure is.
One-paced horses with little or no tactical speed have historically had a tough time making it as sires just about anywhere. Jazil has a splendid pedigree, but were I to breed to him, I would definitely want to use a mare who had shown a real turn of foot.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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geowarrior
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Not trying to be argumentative, Mahubah, but apparently Speightstown is quite small, small enough for many to note his size, but he's been very successful at the sales. I'm assuming this is an aberration, though.
I'm still bitter that Super Frolic is dead because he was sent back racing after an initial retirement to stud. Apparently the book of mares wasn't good enough and the principal reason was supposedly his small size. Never mind his nice pedigree with the tail female to La Troienne and other nice features, plus a long, strong, high class racing record.
It was planned to move him to an Atlantic setting which would have been fine, but maybe he just deserved a turnout and a rest while he was waiting for the following season, but no, he had to race again as though the millions he had earned weren't enough. So his fate was to suffer a catastrophic breakdown on the so-safe Tapeta surface at Presque Isle Downs. And according to Michael Dickinson, breakdowns on the Tapeta occurred because the horses had been working on dirt. A bitter obituary for a nicely bred, high class, durable (this was his 43rd start) racer.
I liked Super Frolic as a potential sire and I wouldn't let the size of the horse put me off.
Doesn't anybody remember Northern Dancer? Of course I know you do, Mahubah, as I read the article you wrote about the pit they dug for his mares to stand in. He was small - yet that did not stop him being a great sire. Nor from getting big sales (like Snaafi Dancer!).
As far as the plodder aspect of Jazil, I agree, but surely given the good female family, and a likely drop in price after the first couple of years, one might risk a speedy mare to him at that point?
I'm still bitter that Super Frolic is dead because he was sent back racing after an initial retirement to stud. Apparently the book of mares wasn't good enough and the principal reason was supposedly his small size. Never mind his nice pedigree with the tail female to La Troienne and other nice features, plus a long, strong, high class racing record.
It was planned to move him to an Atlantic setting which would have been fine, but maybe he just deserved a turnout and a rest while he was waiting for the following season, but no, he had to race again as though the millions he had earned weren't enough. So his fate was to suffer a catastrophic breakdown on the so-safe Tapeta surface at Presque Isle Downs. And according to Michael Dickinson, breakdowns on the Tapeta occurred because the horses had been working on dirt. A bitter obituary for a nicely bred, high class, durable (this was his 43rd start) racer.
I liked Super Frolic as a potential sire and I wouldn't let the size of the horse put me off.
Doesn't anybody remember Northern Dancer? Of course I know you do, Mahubah, as I read the article you wrote about the pit they dug for his mares to stand in. He was small - yet that did not stop him being a great sire. Nor from getting big sales (like Snaafi Dancer!).
As far as the plodder aspect of Jazil, I agree, but surely given the good female family, and a likely drop in price after the first couple of years, one might risk a speedy mare to him at that point?
Small never seems to hurt a proven sire, but as a new sire Speightstown is indeed an aberration as far as commercial appeal goes. I'm assuming that he consistently throws stock bigger than he himself is. For that matter, having seen both Distorted Humor and Speightstown in person, I can tell you that the 15.3 stallion register height given for Distorted Humor is definitely generous; he's only a little taller than Speightstown, who is nowhere near the 15.3 he's listed at unless he's grown since the end of 2006. (I've noticed the tendency for small horses to grow and very large horses to shrink in the stallion registers, but this isn't exactly new news -- I doubt it's straight-up dishonesty, just using the most favorable of several measurements taken at different times.) Distorted Humor consistently throws horses larger than himself, though -- classic case of regression to the mean, I guess -- and, in any event, they can run. Both Distorted Humor and Speightstown are attractive horses, too; they just aren't big.
Northern Dancer was helped greatly during the early part of his stallion career by the support of his owner, E.P. Taylor, who had the best band of mares in Canada and made good use of them in supporting his young sire. The Dancer's progeny did sell pretty well during his early career in Canada, where his reputation was even higher than it was in the US, but the real kicker as far as the U.S. market went was after The Minstrel won the Derby Stakes, Irish Derby, and King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes for Robert Sangster -- that, and the initial successes of Nijinsky II and Lyphard as sires. After that, Sangster seemed determined to own every good colt by Northern Dancer that he could, and when Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai developed a similar interest, the fabulous bidding wars of the early to mid-1980s were on, usually with the progeny of Northern Dancer or his sons as the objects of contention.
Anyway, regarding Jazil, he's certainly worth a look given his pedigree, which is one of the best in the ASB, and if he's reasonably correct, there's no real reason for someone who's breeding to race to shy off him on account of his size. My biggest concern with him is the lack of tactical speed, which historically has been a major red flag -- perhaps "plodder" is too strong a word to use with him, but at least to me, he seemed to be a horse who depended on making one long grinding run to the finish, and that has been a type of runner that simply hasn't done well in the American stallion market regardless of size or royal pedigree. I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if he defies the odds as I feel that Shadwell runs a classy operation that well deserves its successes, and another good source of stamina in the gene pool sure wouldn't hurt anything either.
By the way, geo, you're not being argumentative at all. You're just opening up the floor for debate and discussion, which is entirely different. How would any of us learn anything if everything posted here reflected only one person's opinion?
Northern Dancer was helped greatly during the early part of his stallion career by the support of his owner, E.P. Taylor, who had the best band of mares in Canada and made good use of them in supporting his young sire. The Dancer's progeny did sell pretty well during his early career in Canada, where his reputation was even higher than it was in the US, but the real kicker as far as the U.S. market went was after The Minstrel won the Derby Stakes, Irish Derby, and King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Diamond Stakes for Robert Sangster -- that, and the initial successes of Nijinsky II and Lyphard as sires. After that, Sangster seemed determined to own every good colt by Northern Dancer that he could, and when Sheikh Mohammed of Dubai developed a similar interest, the fabulous bidding wars of the early to mid-1980s were on, usually with the progeny of Northern Dancer or his sons as the objects of contention.
Anyway, regarding Jazil, he's certainly worth a look given his pedigree, which is one of the best in the ASB, and if he's reasonably correct, there's no real reason for someone who's breeding to race to shy off him on account of his size. My biggest concern with him is the lack of tactical speed, which historically has been a major red flag -- perhaps "plodder" is too strong a word to use with him, but at least to me, he seemed to be a horse who depended on making one long grinding run to the finish, and that has been a type of runner that simply hasn't done well in the American stallion market regardless of size or royal pedigree. I certainly wouldn't be unhappy if he defies the odds as I feel that Shadwell runs a classy operation that well deserves its successes, and another good source of stamina in the gene pool sure wouldn't hurt anything either.
By the way, geo, you're not being argumentative at all. You're just opening up the floor for debate and discussion, which is entirely different. How would any of us learn anything if everything posted here reflected only one person's opinion?
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
jazil comments,
Thanks, most are similar to the bosses concerns. The mare throws big, is a full sister to an older mare champ, and is a little too big herself. the whole family excells, at 8.5 and up and all improve with age. But...here is the kicker. She will be booked to Survivalist. Ha! So there , trying to think like the owner, I figured that 10k for a first year Can. seemed to be close to the 12.5, but for travel. And cuz I'm waiting on a Posse + a Van Nistlerooy, he likes to find who may be hot. We do well up here with long running, late developing horses. Only a few sprinters in the farms history, not that they'd be resented. I just think there's something special about that family. And I loe to bring two great female families together. If california wasn't so far away, I'd be looking to Decarchy. Rember: opinions are like a*& holes, everybody has one.
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Applesauce
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Plodder is a great description in my opinion.
He's very unimpressive physically. When I saw him as a yearling, he was very feminine but an over-all good animal. But after seeing him after his retirement, there was a lot lacking in my opinion.
As much as I love that female line, the only way I'd use him at this point is if I had a mare with a ton of speed who carried Best in Show within the first 4 and hope picking up the RF will help Jazil.
As far as the family not throwing stallions, per pokeyman, let's not forget El Gran Senor was a top stallion who had major fertility problems yet consistently got international champions and graded winners.
The top Australian stallion Redoute's Choice is also tail-female to Best in Show.
Add Try My Best, Xaar, Spinning World, Malinowski, etc. and you have a family who gets good stallions who tend to be very good broodmare sires and broodmare sire of sires but poor sire of sires.
Even Nijinsky II, who was from a different branch of the Herd Girl family, was underwhelming as a sire of sires yet excelled as a broodmare sire and broodmare sire of sires.
He's very unimpressive physically. When I saw him as a yearling, he was very feminine but an over-all good animal. But after seeing him after his retirement, there was a lot lacking in my opinion.
As much as I love that female line, the only way I'd use him at this point is if I had a mare with a ton of speed who carried Best in Show within the first 4 and hope picking up the RF will help Jazil.
As far as the family not throwing stallions, per pokeyman, let's not forget El Gran Senor was a top stallion who had major fertility problems yet consistently got international champions and graded winners.
The top Australian stallion Redoute's Choice is also tail-female to Best in Show.
Add Try My Best, Xaar, Spinning World, Malinowski, etc. and you have a family who gets good stallions who tend to be very good broodmare sires and broodmare sire of sires but poor sire of sires.
Even Nijinsky II, who was from a different branch of the Herd Girl family, was underwhelming as a sire of sires yet excelled as a broodmare sire and broodmare sire of sires.
Nijinsky II was actually underrated as a sire of sires, but most of his major successes in this area were in Europe. His sons included Caerleon, Niniski, Green Dancer, and Royal Academy, all good sires -- I believe the first three all had 10% SWs from foals or better, traditionally the hallmark of a top sire, but their offspring raced primarily in Europe, while Royal Academy has had a sizable number of his better runners from his time in Brazil. Nijinsky II had a number of other sons that had their moments but were not as consistent.
If I were selecting a mare for Jazil, I'd look for a well-made mare with good speed by A.P. Indy or one of his sons, reversing the cross that produced Rags to Riches.
If I were selecting a mare for Jazil, I'd look for a well-made mare with good speed by A.P. Indy or one of his sons, reversing the cross that produced Rags to Riches.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
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Applesauce
- Suckling
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Niniski's male line is the only one that seems to be holding on. His sons Hernando and Lomitas have both gotten some good runners and have young sons of high racing class at stud. It is possible that Royal Academy may still have a son to do well also, perhaps in Brazil.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
Good points, all.
Plus, in addition to his female family being producers of more broodmare sires than sire of sires, Seeking the Gold (his sire) falls into the same category.
It looks like Rags might outproduce Jazil??
It's too risky to breed at that price but I would snatch up a Jazil filly in a heartbeat! So, if any of you get a small, weedy, immature, fine boned shrimp of a filly than I am your buyer!! I would take this type of race prospect (small, unimpressive, late maturing) any day of the week.
Of course, we breed to race.....what a shock! Expecting a Concerto and Cozzene this spring so commercial appeal means nothing to us.
I would, personally speaking, look for a filly out of a turf mare that was a miler. Even though he crapped the bed in his only turf start, I think he could get turf runners so as a turf loving fool, I do have my eye on him.
Plus, in addition to his female family being producers of more broodmare sires than sire of sires, Seeking the Gold (his sire) falls into the same category.
It looks like Rags might outproduce Jazil??
It's too risky to breed at that price but I would snatch up a Jazil filly in a heartbeat! So, if any of you get a small, weedy, immature, fine boned shrimp of a filly than I am your buyer!! I would take this type of race prospect (small, unimpressive, late maturing) any day of the week.
Of course, we breed to race.....what a shock! Expecting a Concerto and Cozzene this spring so commercial appeal means nothing to us.
I would, personally speaking, look for a filly out of a turf mare that was a miler. Even though he crapped the bed in his only turf start, I think he could get turf runners so as a turf loving fool, I do have my eye on him.
A Concerto and a Cozzene? Nice! Both very nice breed-to-race sires IMO who offer good value for their stud fees.
"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher...You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse." C. S. Lewis
hi Mahubah
The WinStar/Taylor Made ventures leave me cold.
And it has nothing to do with the physical size/height of the horses they've ventured into.
For example, Tiznow is what might be described as giant-size...Our Emblem is what might be described as average-size...Speightstown is what might be described as maybe a tad less than average-size.
No, the size/height of Speightstown doesn't concern me, but there are other things about him that do raise questions/concerns (as far as I'm concerned)...that in total, lead me to believe that he'll likley be an underachiever (in relation to his $40k stud fee) as a sire of quality racehorses (maybe most noticeably, quality two-turn racehorses).
For starters (and in no particular order)...1/ Speightstown was absolutely positively one-dimensional, 2/ Speightstown doe NOT (to my way of thinking) have enough leg under him (proportionally), 3/ Speightstown had soundness/physical issues, 4/ Speightstown is not from a family known for producing elite runners, 5/ Speightstown is not from a family known for producing elite sire(s), 6/ Speightstown NEVER won a stakes race until he was a six-year-old.
I might suggest that when Taylor Made has their hand in the pot (such as they did with Our Emblem and they do with Speightstown)...
maybe a red warning flag should be run up the flag pole...or maybe a skull and crossbones flag...or maybe just a huge flag bearing the words BREEDERS BEWARE, TAYLOR MADE IS INVOLVED.
Seems to me (at least from my perspective) that Taylor Made might be doing to WinStar what Chrysler did to Mercedes...tarnishing their brand.
When I think Taylor Made, I cannot forget Artax...Storm Creek...Our Emblem...Exploit etc, and the many many many many TM clients (and/or former TM clients...hmmm) that followed their advice/recommendations, only to take it on the chin (financially).
What's the saying...fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice (or maybe many times as is likely the case of many many that followed the advice of Taylor Made) shame on me.
That said, I ask...why go there?
I recommend...BEWARE Speightstown.
Respectfully
Mahubah wrote:Small never seems to hurt a proven sire, but as a new sire Speightstown is indeed an aberration as far as commercial appeal goes.
The WinStar/Taylor Made ventures leave me cold.
And it has nothing to do with the physical size/height of the horses they've ventured into.
For example, Tiznow is what might be described as giant-size...Our Emblem is what might be described as average-size...Speightstown is what might be described as maybe a tad less than average-size.
No, the size/height of Speightstown doesn't concern me, but there are other things about him that do raise questions/concerns (as far as I'm concerned)...that in total, lead me to believe that he'll likley be an underachiever (in relation to his $40k stud fee) as a sire of quality racehorses (maybe most noticeably, quality two-turn racehorses).
For starters (and in no particular order)...1/ Speightstown was absolutely positively one-dimensional, 2/ Speightstown doe NOT (to my way of thinking) have enough leg under him (proportionally), 3/ Speightstown had soundness/physical issues, 4/ Speightstown is not from a family known for producing elite runners, 5/ Speightstown is not from a family known for producing elite sire(s), 6/ Speightstown NEVER won a stakes race until he was a six-year-old.
I might suggest that when Taylor Made has their hand in the pot (such as they did with Our Emblem and they do with Speightstown)...
maybe a red warning flag should be run up the flag pole...or maybe a skull and crossbones flag...or maybe just a huge flag bearing the words BREEDERS BEWARE, TAYLOR MADE IS INVOLVED.
Seems to me (at least from my perspective) that Taylor Made might be doing to WinStar what Chrysler did to Mercedes...tarnishing their brand.
When I think Taylor Made, I cannot forget Artax...Storm Creek...Our Emblem...Exploit etc, and the many many many many TM clients (and/or former TM clients...hmmm) that followed their advice/recommendations, only to take it on the chin (financially).
What's the saying...fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice (or maybe many times as is likely the case of many many that followed the advice of Taylor Made) shame on me.
That said, I ask...why go there?
I recommend...BEWARE Speightstown.
Respectfully