Johar

AscotStud · Postby **AscotStud** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:15 pm

I agree, some of the quotes are hilarious. I will say that I do put weight into the neck, it does serve a purpose in the way the horse moves. I can somewhat see where people will say a horse will go two turns by it's make-up and walk, just like you can spot a horse who should love the turf.

Size is one thing that kills me, my best and soundest runners have been 16hands and under. It baffles me why somebody wants a roided out 16 hand yearling. What is going to happen when you send it from the sale to get broke...it will break. People would rather by a big clumsy giant than an athlete. Whateve, at least everything I breed runs, I'll take the breeders awards over a few extra bucks at the sale anyways.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:53 pm

AscotStud wrote:I agree, some of the quotes are hilarious. I will say that I do put weight into the neck, it does serve a purpose in the way the horse moves. I can somewhat see where people will say a horse will go two turns by it's make-up and walk, just like you can spot a horse who should love the turf.

Size is one thing that kills me, my best and soundest runners have been 16hands and under. It baffles me why somebody wants a roided out 16 hand yearling. What is going to happen when you send it from the sale to get broke...it will break. People would rather by a big clumsy giant than an athlete. Whateve, at least everything I breed runs, I'll take the breeders awards over a few extra bucks at the sale anyways.

Well, I have to respectfully disagree on some of your points, my friend. Flip through the stallion directory and you will see short necks, low set necks, ewe necks....all on graded stakes winners! I have, personally, ridden, all of these necks and necks do not matter!!

I also use to have A circuit show horses before breeding thoroughbreds so I know conformation!! The neck means crap unless it is so thick that the horse can't flex at the poll- only matters in ring work.

I have also galloped and conditioned thoroughbreds and the neck mattered little in terms of their balance even while going cross country.

I like a great shoulder but it is rare nowadays. With the distances getting shorter, the shoulder became straighter. Lots of horses can compensate for it....

I have seen it all..and watched horses win with every conformation fault under the sun!

Now, we just look for a relatively correct individual who travels relatively straight (without interference/forging) and has good feet. Pedigree is 1st. conformation 2nd. walk last.

That whole- "I can spot a 2 turn horse is ridiculous"! Some horses are thick and chunky (think majority of Danzigs) and can easily get 2 turns when people are like...he's a sprinter. Remember, Secretariat was no lanky greyhound! Plus, plenty of scopy horses can't get 2 turns. I own one! Mare is by Deputed Testamony out of a Rock Talk/First Landing mare...tail female to Pretty Polly and could barely get 5 1/2 furlongs! Now, if you were to go out and look at her in the field- refined, lean muscles, leggy- you would think 2 turns!

Please enlighten me.....how can you tell a horse that likes the turf? I am curious since I try to breed and race turf horses. Now, if you were to see my Cozzene foal out of my Trempolino mare and didn't know the pedigree please tell me how you would know it is a future turf horse?

YOU CANNOT TELL FROM APPEARANCE!!!!

I don't mean to be a devils advocate or seem like I am picking on you (as this is all said in friendly jest-*wink*) but someone is giving you bad information...probably a bloodstock "consultant" with a foreign accent!! They tend to feed potential buyers a load of sh**!!

AscotStud · Postby **AscotStud** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:43 pm

I'm not saying there is a be all and end all for what to look for. I have a filly now who toes in as bad as a horse can, I think she's great (even though she stopped today, an easy fix though). My best horse was offset at the knees, toed in and out upfront, I lost him a couple years ago at Keeneland, but he's still running now at 7.

If I'm looking at a horse I want the neck to flow into the shoulder, I don't nix a horse if it has a ratty neck, but one that flows into a great shoulder does rate higher for me. What I've seen in turfer is short cannons, big feet and the hock line dropping well past the ass. I'm not saying a pitbull like Danzig can't get two turns, but a lanky long striding horse will most likely get the distance better than a choppy or shorter striding horse.

I don't mean to be a devils advocate or seem like I am picking on you (as this is all said in friendly jest-*wink*) but someone is giving you bad information...probably a bloodstock "consultant" with a foreign accent!! They tend to feed potential buyers a load of sh**!! Razz

I'm young and dumb, I don't need an agent to make my decisions even worse. I base my opinion on horse I've seen at the track, mares that have come through our farm and the thousands of horses I've looked at in the past 10 years. I know any type can win at any distance on any surface. But I have seen a higher percentage of horses fit certain a criteria.
Don't worry about picking on me, I can take it, it takes a lot more than a friendly disagreement to get me bent. Actually there is probably only one or two things that could actually get me pissed off at someone, and it probably won't come about on a racehorse site. So fire at will.

Remember, Secretariat

No! he was in the shed for more than a few years before I was born. I'm not from a racing or even horse family. I got into the business after making some cash one summer hitting a few BIG tris and decided to by a horse instead of losing it all back, or throwing a few big parties when I got back to school. I have kind of self taught myself about the business and use mostly personal experience, not crap or myths that have been passed on for years. I do respect some peoples wisdom, but find there is a lot more BAD advice out there than good. I've done well enough in 10 years with a very limited bankroll that I'm very comfortable trusting what I know. I got into this with the hope of getting a winners circle picture, I've got plenty, so if I do end up being wrong on everything I believe, oh well.

wallinga · Postby **wallinga** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:10 am

With the glut of horses out there these days Buyers, Broodmare Owners, Trainers and Stallion Masters need to try and whittle down potential stars. As pokeyman says, they come in all shapes and sizes. i think everyone has a different quality they look for in stock. Punters aren't the only people who gamble in the racing game.

The Johars I saw, were just ordinary... that's all I could say about them. on paper they were great, he got some great mares and I love Gone West. Who know's they may just be late maturers or dirt horses.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:18 am

Ascot,

Hahaha...fair enough!!

Nice post and good luck to you, my friend!

toadie · Postby **toadie** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:58 pm

I loved Johar when he was racing (and due to the fact he was out of Windsharp), but was a little disappointed when I saw him in person. Agreeing with most of the posts above, that looks aren't everything, but I didn't like his eye, and his feet are really small. Having dealt for 5yrs. with a talented horse that had horrible feet that's become an issue for me. "No hoof, no horse". I guess that wouldn't matter so much if you're selling as a yearling, but if you're trying to race/show one yourself it can be, at the least, a big PITA. At the worst, even heartbreaking.

pokeyman · Postby **pokeyman** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:26 am

toadie wrote:I loved Johar when he was racing (and due to the fact he was out of Windsharp), but was a little disappointed when I saw him in person. Agreeing with most of the posts above, that looks aren't everything, but I didn't like his eye, and his feet are really small. Having dealt for 5yrs. with a talented horse that had horrible feet that's become an issue for me. "No hoof, no horse". I guess that wouldn't matter so much if you're selling as a yearling, but if you're trying to race/show one yourself it can be, at the least, a big PITA. At the worst, even heartbreaking.

Thank you for your post. That was EXACTLY what I was looking for.......

Agree totally about feet. That's too bad.

Sunday Silence · Postby **Sunday Silence** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:48 pm

Toadie,

When you saw Johar in person what was wrong with his eyes that you didn't like? Was he mean?

toadie · Postby **toadie** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:45 am

Sunday Silence wrote:Toadie,

When you saw Johar in person what was wrong with his eyes that you didn't like? Was he mean?

I certainly can't say whether, or not, he's mean. I was only around him for 5minutes and the groom wasn't giving any info. I will say I wasn't invited to pet him, like some stallions we've gone to see (and I've seen quite a few). All of this is pure conjecture on my part, but he didn't have a "kind eye". At the least he was totally disinterested in his surroundings, and us. I like a horse that's a little more "aware".
For instance, Mineshaft is a horse I had no interest in, but after seeing him at Lanes End, I LOVE him!
What do you call that when you interject human emotions on to animals? Anyway, I hate to do that, but I believe some animals are happy no matter what, and others aren't.

pfrsue · Postby **pfrsue** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:10 am

toadie wrote:What do you call that when you interject human emotions on to animals? Anyway, I hate to do that, but I believe some animals are happy no matter what, and others aren't.

Anthropomorphism?

Taino · Postby **Taino** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:46 pm

Most responsible stallion managers and handlers shouldn't invite visitors to pet their studs. At the larger farms, the stallions are usually on some sort of libido enhancing product, or under testosterone injections, so they are especially aggressive. A couple of missing fingers would probably deter a would be patron.

wallinga · Postby **wallinga** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:28 pm

Taino wrote:Most responsible stallion managers and handlers shouldn't invite visitors to pet their studs. At the larger farms, the stallions are usually on some sort of libido enhancing product, or under testosterone injections, so they are especially aggressive. A couple of missing fingers would probably deter a would be patron.

Man, you should come out to Australia. Stallions are horses.

Taino · Postby **Taino** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:02 am

I too agree that stallions should be horses. I have a son of Marquetry who has bred a few mares, living on strategy, good alfalfa and timothy, with no drugs to "help him out". And the young girls in the neighborhood all come up a pet him ,bring him carrots, etc. A few even hug him. But if any mares are around, I don't want anyone close without a shank on him. But the commercial farms are different. There are some books out that show pics of a regular testicle, and one on an enhancement drug. I take it they need that when breeding upwards of 100 mares within 5 months.

reenci · Postby **reenci** » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:33 am

a balanced horse is more likely to make it to the races earlier......."small fries"...those lumbering giants are just to discombobulated.....taking more time to grow into themselves.......give me a smallish balanced horse any day, then {my way} off to the races at two for a couple of races {education} then home to growup ................yupper give me the small fries.