Can you make a living as a breeder?

[jpstelly]

I suppose like most new businesses you could borrow the money to get started in this business but is it worth it? I am 3 years new at this with only two mares and 1 baby from my lesser mare as me being the breeder with 2 babies due May 1 and 4th.

[teb]

That's a good question isn't it. I do know I wouldn't borrow any money to get into the breeding game. We have 3 mares all paid for in full and the same with all the feeding, breedings, ect. We do have a pretty decent mare who just had her first foal so we won't be seeing any return for a bit. The other 2 mares are good enough. The first foal we ever bred will be running in about 2 weeks time. She's a 2yo. We sell privately and have been lucky in making a profit and still getting to manage the progeny to do the best for the mares. I wouldn't say at the moment breeding is all we could do as we have other parts of the business making money too. In the current market, unless you have top of the game mares, it might be hard to make a living from only breeding. Some people get lucky and some people really do nothing but make a loss. You always have to be wise and constantly think about the end result of your breeding. Will this foal sell, is the mare good enough, have I over stallioned the mare, ect.

When scanning foal sale results I'm amazed people make any money whatsoever in the lower end of the market. Losses all the time. If we were restricted to sales only for selling, it would be tough. We will just have to wait and see how the first babies do and take it from there.

Terri

[dumont84]

I had to jump in here as I have learned a lot since starting breeding in 1990. You need to answer a few questions. Are you breeding to sell at the sales or to race what you breed? Can you afford to buy a S.W mare or at the least a well bred S.P. mare?

I started with an allowance winning mare by Smarten that had won $106,000+ We got 7 foals from her that raced for other people as we don't have the money to race them. Sold them at the sales with a top price of $19,000 and never paid more than $5,000 stud fees, one for $1,700 and yet came up with 2 S.W.'s, one Two Smart that won 6 of 7 starts including 3 distance Stakes under Edgar Prado and trained by G. Motion, The other was a colt by Kokand a S.C. stud that has since come to W.V. His stud fee was $2,500, but we got the breeding for $1,700. He had 2 2nd's in open stakes in Maryland and won a stake at CT after being blocked on the final turn. He won races at Saratoga under J. Baily and other top jockeys.

By selling our offspring, some of them got into leading trainers hands, something that if we had raced them we couldn't have afforded to send them to. Those 7 offspring out of Dancing Smart won over $500,000+ and we made a profit on only a couple as the Breeder. Breeders money from Two Smart was about $18,000.

So to sum up what I think a person needs to do to make a profit at breeding is to not have a bunch of mares that spreads your money around, unless you are loaded. Buy the best mare you can afford, preferably a S.W. and breed her to a commercial sire, one that is bringing good prices at the sales. I now have a yearling filly by Dance With Ravens $7,500 stud fee by A.P. Indy out of Dance Smartly (Danzig) Dance Smartly, Dance With Raven's dam won $3,263,835 and was HOTY in Canada and top 3y.o.filly in the US.

I use Bill Blacks Ulti-Mate pedigree program to help me with my decision making in picking the right sires for my current mare Full Life by Norquestor. She's only had 1 foal to hit the track so far with earnings around $78,000. The Ulti-Mate program program is $1,250.,but worth every penny.

Hope this helps a bit

Charlie

[jpstelly]

Thanks Terri and Charlie;

I to can't afford to breed to race. I want to breed to sell but one of my mares, Miss Top Nelson, isn't a commercial mare so I will try to lease the babies out or sell her in foal. I might have over stallioned her this year with Lydgate who is a $2,000 fee. My other mare is Learning the Ropes by Fit To Fight who produced a stakes placed winner, 2nd in the Pioneer Stakes. She is Bred to Gold Tribure which is a good match to her and also a $2,000 fee. I will try to get me a SW mare soon to hopefully get better moner for my babies. Here in Louisiana the breeders award is 22% of the money earned in 1st, 2nd or 3rd place at any track in the country so this is a plus for us.

I was just wondering if it was possible to be in this business as a living or I would still need another job to help pay for this business. I enjoy this a lot but I tend to want to overspend on the best when sometimes going cheaper is just as good. I do realize that the better the mare the better the profits are and the care is the same as with a lesser mare.

Thanks Terri and Charlie

[TomFool]

Things are drastically different depending on where you are. I think being in La you should consentrate more on just trying to breed a racehorse & lease it to someone that will at least give you a shot but really be careful as there are many wannbe horse trainers I esp know of a few in La. The yearling market there is horriable & it does not look to change in the near future so I def would not count on that. This is a very up & down business even at the upper levels so if you just have a couple of mares in foal to 2k studs you should feel like a huge winner if you can get your money back & hope for breeders awards a few years down the road. I would advise to not pay too much attention to local horses & go to KY sales & select one or two youngs mares with decent race records that had some speed with a racehorse pedigree & take advantage of stallions in La such as Wagon Limit that can get you a racehorse.

[madelyn]

The horse business is unlike any other business, except that like any other business, it takes money to make money. It is very hard to imagine making a living on the breeder's awards from the offspring of two or three mares. It is not a business I would recommend ANYONE borrow money to get into, it is much riskier and less forgiving than other businesses. There are people who make a living in some segments of the business -- the consignors, for instance.

I borrowed money to buy my farm, but that is a real estate investment. My stallion, mares, offspring, equipment, etc., were all paid for cash.

[teb]

JPStelly,
We can't afford to race either, but we sell privately and then can manage what they do. The Irish and English are big fans of the syndicate system instead of entire ownership. We have about 30 guys who own various horses. They just love the gamble which how people make money over here because it sure isn't the purses. Their total outlay is very low with mulitple people and we are always paid on time. We sell then break then manage. So far not one syndicate has lost money being that usually in the first win, they make enough for all bills for quite awhile. These wouldn't be very rich guys but with the money being split it's not too much for one person. The other advantage of this system is for the horses because when retirement rolls around they won't be cast off to sales or worse places. We can reschool and find the best homes we can for them.
As Madelyn says, living off of breeding winnings is not going to happen, but your one mare has already produced a stakes performer so she isn't a write off. Funny enough I got on Gold Tribute when he was in training. I don't think you've over stallioned her at all. Everyone should always try to buy the best mares you can, but at the end of the day I have seen super race mares never get a winner or a minor one and some mares that aren't as well bred produce better horses than themselves. It's always a gamble and ditto the don't borrow money to breed. If you can't buy it outright, do without. I am really pleased with my band of 3. They've done us proud so far and they are my favorite part of the business. My first mare has her first 2yo runner in a 2 weeks time so really excited.
Good luck and in a LA bred program that Fit To Fight mare should do you proud.

Terri

[Jorge]

Let me share what I have read time and again on this subject.

If the person wants to be a top-notch succesful breeder I think it depends on the the sire the person is standing. It is not the same to stand the famou$ Storm Cat than to stand a less heralded "cat storm" sire.

In my opinion, a key factor is the market your are targeting. As I have read, some people know their market and are successful, in a modest way. But realistically speaking, not trying to achieve a Derby winner.

Many years ago, I knew of a breeder whose sole interest was standing regally bred unraced o near unraced sires. He then bought cheap mares, with good bone and conformation descending from good female families. Almost always he achieved decent bread earners. Ocassionally, stakes horses. He was considered one of the best breeders in the area. In my opinion, the bottom line is that if you are breeding for survival, avoid fancy costly equines. period. But then again, be realistic and be content with the market you are targeting.

[jpstelly]

Good point by everyone

Jorge; You make a real good example that I might just follow and slowly improve on my mares.
When I asked if anyone can make a living by being a breeder I wasn't just talking about the breeders awards but also on the sales of the babies. I am understanding that I couldn't make it as my only income source. I like the idea of racing my babies but I would have to lease them out because of the cost of training. I bought my Fit To Fight mare with a baby on the side (filly) and in foal two years ago. I still have the filly which is 2 years old now and I am not the breeder. She is by Placid Fund who has produced several Black type and just recently in Dec. 07 had one that won a $100,000 Stakes race. I have been trying to sell her for $2,800 for a year now and no takers. She is a nice filly with good comformation but still can't sell her. I even tried on this forum in the Buy/Sell section with only one response out of 914 views. Passed her through a yearling sale last year where lesser bred yearlings went for $3,000 or more and she did not get a single bid, Politics I guess as I am an unknown. We had her prepped and in good shape at the time of the sale.

I guess this is why I am wondering if someone could make a living doing this cause it is so hard to get rid of this nice filly. I still love these horses and will continue to try to break the barrier that surronds me.

[Morvich]

Set a high standard for your bloodstock purchases and stick to it. Most people fail in the business because they rationalize purchasing and keeping horses that should have been sold down the river years ago.

[AscotStud]

I will elaborate later...but my brother and I have not had a real job since we both graduated from University. Me in 2000 and him in 2003, life is not easy, but we have assets coming out of our ashens. You need patience to make money this way...we could have sold an in foal mare for a decent buck...and people told us we were stupid for not selling...now we have a foal and if the mare catches we have the same asset as we did the year before...so I guess we might have "lucked out". Our foals, mares, farm and stallion are work lots...we pump everything into our program. The biggest thing is that you develop your program and not just take the quick buck. We have a stake winning mare, a stake producing mare, a G1 producing mare, a 1/2 to a champion, a mare from the family of 4 stallions and 1/2 to 8 winners, a multiple graded stakes placed mare, a full to a Remsen placed horse, and 1/2 to 8 winners and the family of 8 stakes horses in 3 generations.

Send me a PM

[Bedouwia]

This is an interesting thread. I think that you have gotten some good advice, especially NOT to borrow money to invest in breeding. I would add, don't give up your day job for at least five years. The breeding business is long term, and quite risky. Yes, you have a great program in Louisiana (I wish we had the same in Texas!), but lots of people are jumping into the Louisiana market because of the incentives. If you study the sales results very carefully, it is clear that only a very few are actually making any money. Look at your venture as a long term project. Work within your means, and make steady improvements. Don't expect to get rich quick, but the other rewards are great -- especially when you see those foals on the ground.

Bedouwia

[Sock Monkey]

JP, the quick answer to your question is: yes, you can make a living as a breeder. I know several people who do just that. It's not always easy and not for the risk adverse, but people do do it. A lot of people do other facets of the horse business also in order to generate cash flow.

I agree with the idea that quality over quantity, but it is a numbers game and you need to find a balance where you can comfortably care for the stock while still having enough numbers to ensure even in a bad year you will have some foals to sell.

The thing with horses vs. widgets or other types of business is that horses eat every day and are actively trying to kill themselves. In other words, the bills never stop and they are generally highest when your luck is at it's worst.

As far as your Placid Fund. $2,800 is cheap for a 2yo, but as I'm sure you're learning selling commercially is tough. Did you consign it yourself? And, a bit of unsolicited advice... you're getting to the point that a 2yo needs to broke to be saleable.

Good luck!

[jpstelly]

Thanks Sock Monkey;

You are the first to say that it can be done. I can see that with quality mares, even with two or three, the potential is there to make good money.
The feed and care bills will be the same with not so good mares but the purchasing and the stallion fee would be higher. But never the less it can be done but not now for me as I will have to gradually grow.

I am intertaining the idea to have my Placid Fund 2 year old broke!! She has walked on the walker, bath's, lets you tend to her feet, loads very easy, and she also swam for a couple of months. The guy that preped her for the past Nov. sale did all this to her and she did very well. I don't know if I mentioned that she is up to date on her payments for eligibility in the Louiaiana Futurity and she is also eligible for the Louisiana Stallion Stakes. I know that she is worth twice the $2,800 asking price but I need to sell her to help cover her mares stallion fee for the 08 foal due May 4.

Thanks for replying

[imnumberjuan]

jp,

Thanks for asking some of the questions I have wanted to ask.

This weekend I criss-crossed Alberta and checked out a couple of stallions. My experiences have been around the racing - low end claiming game, and this is my sick sense of fun.

I have latched on to a couple of theory's, and try to conduct my own research on others.

I think the outcomes of my matings are at the least something I can synidcate amongst my racing friends. I will consider any mating a success if the horse can get to the track.

I am curious about the thought of "overmating". If anyone could elaborate on that that would be great.