Motivator was injured early in his career & was inbred 5 X 5 X 5 Native Dancer,----5 X 5 Mixed Mariage mare which had 3 crosses of Ph. thru Pharos, Fairway and Mirawala. Motivator has 11 crosses of Ph + the inbreeding of Ph. thru Mixed Marriage.
Motivator would do best with mares from families of speed & stamina, but not top heavy in those Ph sire lines.
Louis's Blog on Inbreeding
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louis finochio
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louis finochio
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Motivator was bred to a test mare Love Token b. M. 1999 (Mark of Esteem---Percy's Lass, by Blakeney. Love Token produced a colt named Emotive Love in 2007.
Love Token has 6 crosses of Phalaris---2 crosses Tourbillon---2 crosses Chateau Bouscaut---2 crosses Gainsborough---1 cross Fair Play---1 cross Swynford---1 cross Hurry On---1 cross Prince Rose.
Love Token is inbred 5 X 5 to Chanteur=Chateau Bouscaut. Love Token provides an excellent outcross for Motivator's Prolific crosses of Phalaris.
Love Token has 6 crosses of Phalaris---2 crosses Tourbillon---2 crosses Chateau Bouscaut---2 crosses Gainsborough---1 cross Fair Play---1 cross Swynford---1 cross Hurry On---1 cross Prince Rose.
Love Token is inbred 5 X 5 to Chanteur=Chateau Bouscaut. Love Token provides an excellent outcross for Motivator's Prolific crosses of Phalaris.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
louis,
i personally find your research very interesting! I am not with the naysayers. keep on doing your research!! let louis have his peace and just take in the good efforts and research being done.
i find it even more interestingly so because of what we just witnessed with poooor Eight Belles and her recent demise in the derby. she was all heart, so big, and so much speed. she had the fastest works of all the boys, and SHE DID IT, she beat them all except Big Brown. GOD REST HER SOUL! but after this happened , i was curious as to what could have been the cause of her breakdown, and remembered your research. from what i see, she goes back to ND 5x that i counted..maybe you can see more into her inbreeding pattern to recognize better. when you do, please post about it. i am curious to see the outcome. there may very well be some prepotency of the ND lines ( and Ph )with too much inbreeding to them and breakdowns as you are calculating. there is no doubt these were some great great stallions in thoroughbred racing history, but i think i am seeing what you are saying, that too much INBREEDING to them is the root of the problem of so many breakdowns?
also, you made a statement and i quote...
"In the USA those fashion breeders shy away from those NP sire lines because they are breeding for speed not stamina."
my question to you is (and please i am asking in a positive note not negative as others have been on this board ) isn't this what you are saying we should be turning to more here...the NP sire lines ( and inbreeding to them) ...to prevent so many breakdowns? who do you see of sires we have available today in the USA that are a viable source to breed to, that are most free, or free of these lines you are saying are more prone to breakdowns? i had read in your other posts that over 90% of horses here in the US today are Ph. bred. do you think we should start looking at bringing in more horses out of the US to cross with ours to get out of this pattern ?
also, as seeing as it almost inevitable to find a horse in the US without this ND or Ph. cross in them..what do you suggest the safest inbreeding cross of them should be to produce a sounder, more sturdy horse of stamina and speed? in other words, how much is too much of their cross in one horse , if you can answer that yet from your research?
what are good crosses with horses that do have Mr. P, Storm Cat, (Northern Dancer) lines? also, i am a little curious as to the Bold Ruler/Buckpasser cross that you seemed to say was negative. That cross ended up with one of the best mares in our recent history, Weekend Surprise, who went on to produce A.P Indy, Summer Squall, Tiger Ridge, Honor Grades...the list goes on. She really should be put in the Hall of Fame! yes , a lot of these horses had breakdowns, but look at their truimph too! they are the best of the best aren't they?
and just to note, i am not trying to argue at all..i am really trying to get a good understanding of all of this and value your input. forgive me if i have gotten any of my information wrong, or misconstrued. thank you for what you are doing!
i personally find your research very interesting! I am not with the naysayers. keep on doing your research!! let louis have his peace and just take in the good efforts and research being done.
i find it even more interestingly so because of what we just witnessed with poooor Eight Belles and her recent demise in the derby. she was all heart, so big, and so much speed. she had the fastest works of all the boys, and SHE DID IT, she beat them all except Big Brown. GOD REST HER SOUL! but after this happened , i was curious as to what could have been the cause of her breakdown, and remembered your research. from what i see, she goes back to ND 5x that i counted..maybe you can see more into her inbreeding pattern to recognize better. when you do, please post about it. i am curious to see the outcome. there may very well be some prepotency of the ND lines ( and Ph )with too much inbreeding to them and breakdowns as you are calculating. there is no doubt these were some great great stallions in thoroughbred racing history, but i think i am seeing what you are saying, that too much INBREEDING to them is the root of the problem of so many breakdowns?
also, you made a statement and i quote...
"In the USA those fashion breeders shy away from those NP sire lines because they are breeding for speed not stamina."
my question to you is (and please i am asking in a positive note not negative as others have been on this board ) isn't this what you are saying we should be turning to more here...the NP sire lines ( and inbreeding to them) ...to prevent so many breakdowns? who do you see of sires we have available today in the USA that are a viable source to breed to, that are most free, or free of these lines you are saying are more prone to breakdowns? i had read in your other posts that over 90% of horses here in the US today are Ph. bred. do you think we should start looking at bringing in more horses out of the US to cross with ours to get out of this pattern ?
also, as seeing as it almost inevitable to find a horse in the US without this ND or Ph. cross in them..what do you suggest the safest inbreeding cross of them should be to produce a sounder, more sturdy horse of stamina and speed? in other words, how much is too much of their cross in one horse , if you can answer that yet from your research?
what are good crosses with horses that do have Mr. P, Storm Cat, (Northern Dancer) lines? also, i am a little curious as to the Bold Ruler/Buckpasser cross that you seemed to say was negative. That cross ended up with one of the best mares in our recent history, Weekend Surprise, who went on to produce A.P Indy, Summer Squall, Tiger Ridge, Honor Grades...the list goes on. She really should be put in the Hall of Fame! yes , a lot of these horses had breakdowns, but look at their truimph too! they are the best of the best aren't they?
and just to note, i am not trying to argue at all..i am really trying to get a good understanding of all of this and value your input. forgive me if i have gotten any of my information wrong, or misconstrued. thank you for what you are doing!
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louis finochio
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Eight Belles was a fashion bred that was inbred 5 X 5 to Native Dancer---4 X 5 X 5 Raise a Native---3 X 4 Mr. P. Eight Belles had single crosses of Hail to Reason, Northern Dancer, Nearctic, Nashua. Mr. P. dam Gold Digger by Nashua adds 2 more crosses of Nashua for a total of 3 crosses of Nashua.
All of the above stallions descend from the Phalaris sire line, and these stallions have produced the most injuries & breakdowns when used in cluster matings of this type.
In my research, I have found these same inbreeding patterns are causing a high % of injuries & breakdowns. Those stallions that I posted that had the fewest injuries & breakdowns are the ones to include into your breeding program, as their female families provide the outcross to breed back the soundness.
These stallions can be used as an outcross, as they have an abundance of those NP sire lines in their pedigrees. Smart Strike, Alphabet Soup, Pleasant Tap, Awesome Again, Officer, Include, Honour & Glory.
To continue.
All of the above stallions descend from the Phalaris sire line, and these stallions have produced the most injuries & breakdowns when used in cluster matings of this type.
In my research, I have found these same inbreeding patterns are causing a high % of injuries & breakdowns. Those stallions that I posted that had the fewest injuries & breakdowns are the ones to include into your breeding program, as their female families provide the outcross to breed back the soundness.
These stallions can be used as an outcross, as they have an abundance of those NP sire lines in their pedigrees. Smart Strike, Alphabet Soup, Pleasant Tap, Awesome Again, Officer, Include, Honour & Glory.
To continue.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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Instead of importing those NP sire line stallions, to use as an outcross, it is better to import those mares of those NP sire lines such as, Prince Rose, Teddy, Hyperion or Gainsborough, Swynford, in the U.S. there's still many Fair Play available in tail- female.
After making the 1st cross it is important for one to revert immediately to the original inbred families rather than continuing to breed from the cross. Note whether the greater uses stallions for mares for his new introductions. The owner of the female family invariably users stallions for the cross Whereas the breeder of a male family uses mostly mares for the cross. you can distinguish 1 family from the other by noting to which side the breeder is inbreeding, whether to female or male ancestors.
I will post many more examples of those fashion Individuals that have the common in breeding patterns that are the cause of these injuries in breakdowns, as we are seeing the same negative in breeding patterns to the same stallions over and over again.
As for the Buckpasser/Bold Ruler negative nick that has produced a prolific number of unsound individuals. 1 must take a curve of all those thoroughbreds were bred from this cross. There were more unsound individuals produce from this cross then there were sound thoroughbreds. A breeder must go with the percentages and hope for the best.
To continue.
After making the 1st cross it is important for one to revert immediately to the original inbred families rather than continuing to breed from the cross. Note whether the greater uses stallions for mares for his new introductions. The owner of the female family invariably users stallions for the cross Whereas the breeder of a male family uses mostly mares for the cross. you can distinguish 1 family from the other by noting to which side the breeder is inbreeding, whether to female or male ancestors.
I will post many more examples of those fashion Individuals that have the common in breeding patterns that are the cause of these injuries in breakdowns, as we are seeing the same negative in breeding patterns to the same stallions over and over again.
As for the Buckpasser/Bold Ruler negative nick that has produced a prolific number of unsound individuals. 1 must take a curve of all those thoroughbreds were bred from this cross. There were more unsound individuals produce from this cross then there were sound thoroughbreds. A breeder must go with the percentages and hope for the best.
To continue.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
[quote="louis finochio"]Eight Belles was a fashion bred that was inbred 5 X 5 to Native Dancer---4 X 5 X 5 Raise a Native---3 X 4 Mr. P. Eight Belles had single crosses of Hail to Reason, Northern Dancer, Nearctic, Nashua. Mr. P. dam Gold Digger by Nashua adds 2 more crosses of Nashua for a total of 3 crosses of Nashua.
All of the above stallions descend from the Phalaris sire line, and these stallions have produced the most injuries & breakdowns when used in cluster matings of this type.
In my research, I have found these same inbreeding patterns are causing a high % of injuries & breakdowns. Those stallions that I posted that had the fewest injuries & breakdowns are the ones to include into your breeding program, as their female families provide the outcross to breed back the soundness.
These stallions can be used as an outcross, as they have an abundance of those NP sire lines in their pedigrees. Smart Strike, Alphabet Soup, Pleasant Tap, Awesome Again, Officer, Include, Honour & Glory.
To continue.[/quote]
Ah fawk i knew this was coming....
All of the above stallions descend from the Phalaris sire line, and these stallions have produced the most injuries & breakdowns when used in cluster matings of this type.
In my research, I have found these same inbreeding patterns are causing a high % of injuries & breakdowns. Those stallions that I posted that had the fewest injuries & breakdowns are the ones to include into your breeding program, as their female families provide the outcross to breed back the soundness.
These stallions can be used as an outcross, as they have an abundance of those NP sire lines in their pedigrees. Smart Strike, Alphabet Soup, Pleasant Tap, Awesome Again, Officer, Include, Honour & Glory.
To continue.[/quote]
Ah fawk i knew this was coming....
When are you going to stop casting stones at the reputation of Phalaris? He is not to blame for all the soundness issues in the breed or even most of them. Inbreeding does not cause problems though it may bring out hidden recessives. Outcrossing does not automatically eliminate problems. Two totally unrelated dogs of different breeds were bred together. Both dogs had hip dysplacia and so did the puppies. You obviously have not studied genetics as I have. Outcrossing unsound to unsound equals unsound. Inbreeding excellence to excellence produces excellence unless there is a mutation. Awesome Again's starts per runner is only 12,Honour And Glory 13,Smart Strike 14. They have generally produced below average soundness as has Eight Belles sire Unbridled's Song only 11. Some of the soundest siring horses are Mr. Prospector sons like Gold Alert 30,Demidoff 28,Crafty Prospector 22,and grandsons also but he also has Kingmambo with 11. There are Northern Dancer grandsons siring sound offspring,Bold Ruckus sons,In Reality grandsons,Private Account,etc. Mating unsound to unsound seems to be getting more common Rags To Riches 7 by A P Indy 12 to Giants Causeway 8 is one example. Genetics is actually very complicated. There are multiple gene traits,incomplete dominants,masked dominants,mutations,etc.
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louis finochio
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Gold Alert descends from the Polynesian branch of Ph. & has 12 crosses of NP---4 crosses Ph. gold alert has no duplication of inbreeding within his 5 generation pedigree.
Demidoff descends from the Polynesian branch of ph. And has 12 crosses of NP. And 4 crosses of ph. Demidoff is inbred 5 x 5 Fair Play--- 4 x 4 Nasrullah.
crafty prospector descends from the Polynesian Branch of ph. And has 13 crosses of NP. And 3 crosses of Ph. Crafty prospector is inbred 5 x 5 to War Relic= Fair Play--- 5 x 5 Discovery=Fair Play.
the soundness of these 3 stallions progeny can be contributed to those many crosses of those NP Sire lines.
The Tbs that have 4 to 7 crosses of ph. through their sire lines are averaging more lifetime starts, then those thoroughbreds that have 9 to 14 crosses of ph.
Every thoroughbred breeder has his own formula to breed the big horse, but after the big horse is bred, his soundness will determine how many lifetime starts he will attain.
Demidoff descends from the Polynesian branch of ph. And has 12 crosses of NP. And 4 crosses of ph. Demidoff is inbred 5 x 5 Fair Play--- 4 x 4 Nasrullah.
crafty prospector descends from the Polynesian Branch of ph. And has 13 crosses of NP. And 3 crosses of Ph. Crafty prospector is inbred 5 x 5 to War Relic= Fair Play--- 5 x 5 Discovery=Fair Play.
the soundness of these 3 stallions progeny can be contributed to those many crosses of those NP Sire lines.
The Tbs that have 4 to 7 crosses of ph. through their sire lines are averaging more lifetime starts, then those thoroughbreds that have 9 to 14 crosses of ph.
Every thoroughbred breeder has his own formula to breed the big horse, but after the big horse is bred, his soundness will determine how many lifetime starts he will attain.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
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louis finochio
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After looking at Weekend surprise's pedigree, I only found 5 stallions which were Buckpasser---Tom Fool--- Turn-to---Nasrullah & Bold ruler for a total of 5 stallions that have produced the most injuries and breakdowns.
Tbs That have between 12 to 24 crosses of these stallions in their 5 generation pedigrees are experiencing many soundness problems. Weekend Surprise is inbred 2 X 4 to Somethingroyal=Prince rose sire line, which adds a prolific amount of soundness to her progeny.
Weekend Surprise has many crosses of those NP sire lines on her dams side to contribute to her progeny soundness. Weekend Surprise colts were far ahead of her fillies in racing performance.
Tbs That have between 12 to 24 crosses of these stallions in their 5 generation pedigrees are experiencing many soundness problems. Weekend Surprise is inbred 2 X 4 to Somethingroyal=Prince rose sire line, which adds a prolific amount of soundness to her progeny.
Weekend Surprise has many crosses of those NP sire lines on her dams side to contribute to her progeny soundness. Weekend Surprise colts were far ahead of her fillies in racing performance.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
Louis, I don't agree with what you call inbreeding because to me anything past the 4th remove would not be influencing an individual to any great extent, but again thats my opinion.
What do you make of Big Browns inbreeding? ( From Memory) 3X3 Northern Dancer, 4X5 Damascus, 5X6 Round Table and cross of Throng and Lt Stevens throught his dam farther back.
What do you make of Big Browns inbreeding? ( From Memory) 3X3 Northern Dancer, 4X5 Damascus, 5X6 Round Table and cross of Throng and Lt Stevens throught his dam farther back.
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louis finochio
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Good Day Curlin, to my neighbor only 2 miles away.
Unusual Heat has 12 crosses of NP. & 4 crosses of Ph. through his stallions. Unusual heat has 16 crosses of NP & 0 crosses of ph. Through his dam's.
Unusual Heat soundest progeny were 55 starts B M S Raise a Champion= Polynesian Branch of ph.---- 52 starts B M S Far North= Nearco branch of ph.---- 50 starts B M S Mt. Livermore= Nearco branch of ph.
unusual heat is inbred 5 x 5 to Pharos=Ph.---- 5 x 5 x 5 Hyperion = Gainsborough---- 5 x 5 Mahmoud=Swynford.
UH can be used as an outcross for those mares with 9-14 crosses of ph.
Unusual Heat has 12 crosses of NP. & 4 crosses of Ph. through his stallions. Unusual heat has 16 crosses of NP & 0 crosses of ph. Through his dam's.
Unusual Heat soundest progeny were 55 starts B M S Raise a Champion= Polynesian Branch of ph.---- 52 starts B M S Far North= Nearco branch of ph.---- 50 starts B M S Mt. Livermore= Nearco branch of ph.
unusual heat is inbred 5 x 5 to Pharos=Ph.---- 5 x 5 x 5 Hyperion = Gainsborough---- 5 x 5 Mahmoud=Swynford.
UH can be used as an outcross for those mares with 9-14 crosses of ph.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
I'm a novice at the breeding stuff but have read alot about "belle". No matter what the findings are this game is about corporate & making money. I read on these posts:"Jones is reputed to have a VERY heavy hand with steroids. Likely she was so hopped on Equipoise she ran to breakdown. Another Unbridled's Song with a fragile front end. Very sad"
So what we may have is a combination of the inbreeding, a horse being asked to do too much too soon, questionable trainers, greedy owners, too large a field. A horse or dog or any animal doesn't choose to take a steroid, or race 17 times prior to a derby..they rely on us to do best by them, but how many owners/trainers do? Who advocates on behalf of the horse? As long as these mega corporations and greedy owners/trainers make this about money and a business, horses like Belle will pay with their life.
So what we may have is a combination of the inbreeding, a horse being asked to do too much too soon, questionable trainers, greedy owners, too large a field. A horse or dog or any animal doesn't choose to take a steroid, or race 17 times prior to a derby..they rely on us to do best by them, but how many owners/trainers do? Who advocates on behalf of the horse? As long as these mega corporations and greedy owners/trainers make this about money and a business, horses like Belle will pay with their life.