Okay.. Casino Drive or Big Brown, whose side are you on?

[choking]

I could be wrong here, but I don't think Beyer speed figs account for ground loss. Big Brown breaking from post 20 taking a wide trip and still earned a high Beyer.

[bdw0617]

you guys really, really don't get it.

and the sad fact is I actually WANT big brown to win. but you still dotn' get it.


Hi BDW,
One day, maybe 30 years from today you can say the words above and it will have some meaning. Since you have never seen or been up close and personal to the likes of Seattle Slew, Secretariat or Big Brown...
never experiencing such greatness in real time you are the one that may not be able to grasp what is going on here. After Big Brown wins the Triple Crown you will then be able to judge a champion from a real nice horse.
I have been quoted on this board as saying Big Brown is the best I've seen since Seattle Slew...I also said he is the same type of animal with raw overpowering speed and ability. Big Brown got the picture after the Florida Derby, the light bulb went on, he changed mentally and phsically and since has been awesome. Just because there is no one out there for him to beat doesn't mean he is not a true champion. Back in December I also said if he continues to train the way he is he could win both Derby's Florida and Kentucky....remember that, you were posting on that original Big Brown thread. I made these comments about "Brownie" because I know the horse and have seen him train. He was then and still is a freak, but now he is a determined freak and he is one of the greatest I have ever seen and I saw Secretariat and Seattle Slew before they ever raced.
Casino Drive is a nice horse and deserves to be in the Belmont, but he is no Big Brown. This year will be one of the fastest Belmonts ever run and the reason is Big Brown is the only horse I've seen (other than Secretariat) that is capable of going along in 12's to an eight and then give you more if you ask him. TJ

ovbiusly you being next to these great horses before I was born didn't do a hill of beans because you are pretty darn clueless to even think of the horse sin the same breath.

big red holds the track record at each track for each race.

Big REd beat... by 2 and a half lengths at that, . the horse that has the 2nd fastest derby time ever! he literary had to run faster than the horse who 999 out of 1000 times would have won the Kentucky derby (sham)

Big Red beat horses like Angel light, stop the music, sham, Riva Ridge, Kennedy Road and horses of that like. all top class horses, and made them look silly.

if big brown (and alot of other horses) ran against big red (i just noticed that lol) big red would clean his clock. they aren't in the same class of horse. harldey anyone is.

He's more in the realm of seattle slew, who while he faced better horses than big brown is running against now, they weren't worldbeaters.


DDT,

the 2nd place finisher in the peter pan ran a sub 1:49 mile and an 8th. of course it took him longer to get "going" because mint lane came to run that day. YOU go back and look at the race.

[DDT]

bdw0617

Finishing 2nd and the running time are not what I am talking about, look at how each horse accelerates after a mile in very similar time but not very similar tracks. If you think Mint Lane is the reason Casino Drive's move was less impressive than Big Brown's how far behind Big Brown was Icabad Crane the horse that previously took the measure of Mint Lane?

DDT

[TJ]

[quote="bdw0617"

ovbiusly you being next to these great horses before I was born didn't do a hill of beans because you are pretty darn clueless to even think of the horse sin the same breath.

Hi BDW,
I'll stay clueless and around the greats while you can just talk like you have a clue. TJ

[Dave C]

No 3yo is worthy of being called a 'great' racehorse until he beats older horses in the fall. This is my beef with BB, not the horse but the people who are hanging the title 'great racehorse' on him before he has had to run a single decent race to beat a really good racehorse.

Another thing about BB is that he is being handled exactly how you would handle a horse if you are running a scam. Create a buzz and get the horse sold before anyone figures out how your bending the rules: if he is retired before anyone figures it out all the better because you can do it again. Is IEAH running a scam with BB? We'll never know if he doesn't run on into the fall and then as a 4yo.

As for Casino Drive, he's only run 2 races, it's still wait and see what he can do.

[Hold Your Peace]

Casino Drive didn't beat a single North American stakes winner in the Peter Pan and none of the horses in his maiden race back in February have come back to win so he didn't beat anything in Japan either.

Big Brown though, beat 18 graded stakes winners in the Kentucky Derby.

I do think Casino Drive will be the best of the rest in the Belmont, but I don't think he'll be in contention for the win.

[Tiz]

TJ, do you know who started Big Brown? He is so impressive in that he does exactly what he's asked to do. How many horses could go out and breeze a quarter on the big day, without his human connections being scared to death he'd run off, or go too far.

[spex4me]

DDT-
What is your op of Ready's Echo in that race? It was his acceleration in the lane that really makes me like him, even over CD. He also had to overcome a 12 length defecit and still turn on the after burners a tad bit. Not to mention I like his conduit mare profile even better to handle the Belmont distance.
Mind you I am a big time newbie, so I might miss nuances you other guys see.

[Heidilady]

The Preakness Beyer was 100. I'm curious what folks think that means, whether it indicates he's already done his bouncing (and still beat a weak field which they said he could do, even if he bounced hard), or does it indicate a chink in the armor? You gotta dig to find the built in breeding for that level of distance but everyone was iffy on Bold Ruler and look what happened. Not only did you know who get 1 1/2, he obliterated it. I'm not comparing BB to him by any means. Seriously people, watch YouTube and you'd never in a million years think BB deserved to sniff Secretariat's stall droppings. That said, he's wonderful to watch, I just don't like his connections. I'm conflicted. He's apparently a people "person" so to speak and gotta admit that's kinda sweet. Very gorgeous too. I won't root against him but if CD won I wouldn't cry about it. I know folks go 'well BB wasn't even trying' in the Preakness but Empire Maker tried to gear down in the Wood--where it made it look like Funny Cide was getting back to him--then he was a mess in the Derby. Point Given looked like a hero but Baffert admits he messed up prepping and should've gotten more seasoning in before the Derby. At some point BB's gonna feel the campaign but if it's not til after the Belmont, congrats folks, you have a TC winner. For what it's worth on the running down, he's been doing it in the front. This past time it was in the back. Anybody want to talk about that in the context of the Belmont surface?

I just want him to come out of the race safe and sound. After situations like Barbaro, Eight Belles, and good ol' Charismatic, I really think a good race could do an awful lot, win or lose. Curlin and Rags last year was a blast right? I want that again. Duel to the finish. I think it would be roll on the ground hilarious if neither BB nor CD won, and someone like Denis or Ready pulled an Exceller. Better than Honour's already Broodmare of the Year but maybe give it to her next time too if she manages this again, heck. However the Belmont finishes, BB and Curlin, let's get it on.

[Heidilady]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GnUBuMtvvLY

Casino Drive breaking his maiden. It's in Japanese but enjoy. Afterward, pick your jaw off the floor. I figure we can at least enjoy this fella for awhile. What I wouldn't give to know what Kent is thinking. He's ridden both of them and I'm sure he knows you can't take things for granted (he thought FuPeg had the TC too so he's gotta be getting a little wary about the certainty over BB) but he has to know how good CD is. I wonder if it'll be like Earl Sande who rode both Sir Barton and Man O'War and got in deep doo doo when he opened his big mouth about how he thought MOW was better. Kent probably wants BB to be better, hasn't had to push either horse to the limit, and knows he needs to be political even it's clear who the better horse is.

Who's gonna get CD, do we know? Edgar?

[Taff]

I backed Cesario to win the Oaks in 2005 and will be backing Casino Drive for my winning streak on Japanese horses to continue.

[bdw0617]

if it's one thing that has been proven in almost 100 years of wagering is that people go with the known over the unknown. this is literarly what this arguement comes down to. people have seen big brown race in a grade 1 race and haven't seen casino drive do so, therefore he can't.

Casino Drive's maiden win is as impressive as big browns. his peter pan is as impressive to me as his florida derby win.

the only difference giving the edge to big brown is experience. but my whole point is that casino drive is the 2nd best horse in the country at the worst.

[jagger]

What was the distance of CD's maiden win? The time? He did look very impressive but like BB, he didn't seem to have much competition. We don't have to wonder if he can get 12F. Jazil and Rags were both around 2:28. This will not be good enough IMO. Whoever wins, I think we are in for a great race. This may be Big Brown's only real chance to prove just how good he is. I think if pressed by CD to the wire, we may have a sub 2:26 or the second best time ever. How many days til post?

[WARHORSE28]

Hi All! New here... I don't work in the TB industry and have no practical experience when it comes right down to it... but I've been a thoroughbred lover since birth, and haven't missed a nationally televised race since 1970.

Very happy to find you all here chatting about my favorite subject, even though you all are way more advanced in genetic knowledge than I am. (Maybe I'll learn some things by sticking around!)

As far as BB and Casino Drive go... I have always tended to root for the underdogs. I'll never forget the 1973 Belmont, had rooted for Sham all spring. When they hit the 3/4 pole in 1:09 & change, I knew that I was either going to witness history in the making, or they were both going to implode from the pace. And everyone knows how that one turned out!

I say BB all the way!!! He's the most exciting thing I've seen in years, with a turn of foot that's unbelievable. Can't wait till the Belmont. Hopefully Casino Drive will at least make a horse race out of it!

[Strategic Maneuver]

I'm going to root for BB and enjoy the show, especially Dutrow and the boys from IEAH. Watching them is like watching the Sopranos. Go "Babe".