Looking for Stallions with Ribot or Princequillo.

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

He finished 2007 on the NY list at position 15, so there are at least 14 stallions standing in New York that out rank him by earnings at a fee of $10,000 or less. I am not disagreeing with you as to his ability to move his mares up, he could be ranked nationally in that category, but he is far from the top 5 in NA standing for a fee of 10,000 or less. He is currently number 24 on the NY sire list.

DDT

You are either biased or need a course in statistics. Raffie's Majesty is one of the best values in America at $3,000 and the hybrid vigor he brings to a mating is rarely found in American breeding.


His lifetime AEI is 1.65 with a CI of 1.14 outstanding to say the least. Compare that to current leading New York sires or even the top 10 in the US save Smart Strike.


In NY Freud who stands for $10,000(but has a so called 'fashionable pedigree') has an AEI of 1.62 with a CI of 1.39 good but no where near as good as RM. Current leading sire Chief Seattle has an AEI of 1.27 with a CI of 1.41.


As for earnings few in America compare to RM at a fee of $3,000. His Average Earnings per Starter is $67,505 and his median is $35,325 both outstanding numbers especially for stallions standing for under $10,000..... and as previously stated many 5 figure stallions don't have near as good of statistical facts to back up their stallion fees. None of the leading NY studs compare to these numbers.


I don't know what you and others are looking at besides the possible so called 'fashionable pedigrees' which is a fools errand regarding evaluating a stallion. Statistics tell the real story for anyone interested.


Raffie's Majesty offers great value and a hybrid cross rarely found for anyone interested.

[DDT]

horsenuts

I am neither biased nor do I need a course in statistics, statistics can be misleading, and with averager earnings per starter in New York for New York breds it can be very misleading. With 3 2YO winners out of 90 named foals, he has not sired early maturing runners, in fact, his most successful runners are 4YO or older. Read my post, I said his AEI would probably rank him nationally, and I do not think he is a bad choice for anyone breeding to race, his commercial value is none, and again, his average earnings per starter is boosted by the New York bred program. He is a very good sire and a bargain at the price, but he, in my opinion, is not in the top 5 stallions standing for $10,000 or less. Just because I disagree with your assessment does not mean I am biased. Perhaps you are a little biased.

DDT

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

I am neither biased nor do I need a course in statistics, statistics can be misleading, and with averager earnings per starter in New York for New York breds it can be very misleading. With 3 2YO winners out of 90 named foals, he has not sired early maturing runners, in fact, his most successful runners are 4YO or older. Read my post, I said his AEI would probably rank him nationally, and I do not think he is a bad choice for anyone breeding to race, his commercial value is none, and again, his average earnings per starter is boosted by the New York bred program. He is a very good sire and a bargain at the price, but he, in my opinion, is not in the top 5 stallions standing for $10,000 or less. Just because I disagree with your assessment does not mean I am biased. Perhaps you are a little biased.


DDT

Can you list the 5 studs for under $10,000 that match or beat RM's numbers?


Please list 5 stallions that have better lifetime AEI 1.67 to CI 1.14 and a $67,000 Earnings per Starter with a $35,000 median( both those figures are tremendous for anyone interested as is the AEI to CI).


You can breed to Forestry for $100,000 but why? His numbers are no where close to Raffies Majesty. True, you have a good chance to break it off on a greater fool at the sales with Forestry type horses but then again sale prices are often inflated and phony so that is a very risky game when paying up for a $100,000 fee. And most 5 figure stallions fall way short of RM's numbers as well in both Average earnings/median as well as AEI to CI.


And is their a better state bred program then NY over the past 5 years? Funny Cide was a NY bred as have been numerous other well bred top horses in recent time. NY just may be the toughest state bred program going with the demise of California racing and Florida weakening as well.

[DDT]

horsenuts

Again, I do not wish to argue with you, however, you point out in your last post that New York has a great program and that is my point as to misleading statistics when using AEI/CEI and average/median earnings per runner as a guide to success. Raffie's runners perform very well against New York breds and earn good checks. His AEI would put him in the top 100 sires ranked by AEI if he had 150 foals of racing age.

Without doing a lot of research I would say that Concerto, Northern Afleet, Benchmark, Slew City Slew and Alphabet Soup have numbers that are as good as Raffie without the benefit of state bred boosted purses and racing in open company, and all of these sires have better stakes winner percentages and stakes winner production.

When you look at his average starts per runner, even though this statistic is also a bit misleading because his foals have little commercial value and their breeders must race them to try to recoup their investment, it indicates to me that he could be a source for stamina as does his pedigree.

DDT

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

Again, I do not wish to argue with you, however, you point out in your last post that New York has a great program and that is my point as to misleading statistics when using AEI/CEI and average/median earnings per runner as a guide to success. Raffie's runners perform very well against New York breds and earn good checks. His AEI would put him in the top 100 sires ranked by AEI if he had 150 foals of racing age.

Without doing a lot of research I would say that Concerto, Northern Afleet, Benchmark, Slew City Slew and Alphabet Soup have numbers that are as good as Raffie without the benefit of state bred boosted purses and racing in open company, and all of these sires have better stakes winner percentages and stakes winner production.

When you look at his average starts per runner, even though this statistic is also a bit misleading because his foals have little commercial value and their breeders must race them to try to recoup their investment, it indicates to me that he could be a source for stamina as does his pedigree.

DDT

NY today is a very tough state bred program and why it takes a good horse to compete which makes Raffie's Majesty an outstanding value at $3,000. NY has produced two Eclipse champions in recent time in Funny Cide and Fleet Indian and other top horses like Commentator. What other state programs does one have to compete against sires like Distorted Humor, Indian Charlie and More Then Ready along with other nationally ranked and leading sires? NY breds have to earn their money far moreso then say an Illinois bred as even the sires standing in NY are representable. Add to that the number of top bred horses foaled out in NY and racing in that state bred program is about as competitive as any in the country.


And from a statistical standpoint Raffie's Majesty beats every horse you listed despite 3 of the 5 standing for over 3 times as much. RM leads in Average earnings per Starter at $67,505. Next is Alphabet Soup at $64,576 and Concerto at $64,238. RM leads in the median category and quite considerably at that with a $35,375 average(truly outstanding) in comparison to Concerto who comes in at #2 at $28,338. RM is tied in the AEI category at 1.65 along with Concerto yet has been bred to the poorest quality mares with a CI of 1.14, Concerto has CI of 1.33 with Benchmark at 1.26 CI. RM is tied with his % of SWs with Concerto at 6%.


And remember Concerto is a 'state bred program' sire as well standing in Florida as is Benchmark in California. Alphabet Soup has fallen out of favor and now resides in Florida as well and needs his fee cut in half to have real value and appeal(currently stands at $10,000). Northern Afleet threw one great horse in Afleet Alex but at $10,000 is also a tad over priced and Slew City Slew has been a very solid sire over the years but I'd take RM at $3,000 over SCS at $6,000. Benchmark also needs his fee halved from his current $10,000 fee.


But what RM also offers over these other sires is his hybrid vigor and what this thread was founded on. For an American sire he has very little Phalaris in his blood and why he crosses so well and has been such a good value over the years. If one is committed to 'building a better beast' and improving his herd RM is worthy of breeding some of one's top mares with Mr P and ND blood. He brings an outcross rarely found and is a proven sire of very nice runners despite being bred to low quality mares. He truly improves a mare unlike SO MANY commercial appealing stallions that offer little to one's herd other then a so called fashionable pedigree which from my perspective are finally being called into question and why I have no interest in pursuing what I regard as a fools errand.

[DDT]

horsenuts

You continue to miss the point, Funny Cide, Fleet Indian and Commentator were not sired by RM, why you would bring them into the discussion is beyond me. RM's AEI is bolstered by the fact that his runners compete in closed, NY bred company for good purses. He is a good regional sire and more power to him.

As to your views on fashion breeding and the sires I mentioned, you asked for five sires and I provided five sires that have numbers similar to RM without the benefit of the NY bred purses.

Since when is RM's stakes winner percentage 6%???

DDT

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

You continue to miss the point, Funny Cide, Fleet Indian and Commentator were not sired by RM, why you would bring them into the discussion is beyond me. RM's AEI is bolstered by the fact that his runners compete in closed, NY bred company for good purses. He is a good regional sire and more power to him.

As to your views on fashion breeding and the sires I mentioned, you asked for five sires and I provided five sires that have numbers similar to RM without the benefit of the NY bred purses.

Since when is RM's stakes winner percentage 6%???

DDT

You've been arguing against RM for days now and you don't even know his statistics regarding you questioning his 6% SWs. Add to that he has had 5 SP horses. That is 11 stake type horses from 72 life time starters and 98 foals of racing age. Tremendous for a sire that has been bred to low quality mares with a 1.14 CI average.


The point of Funny Cide, Fleet Indian, Commentator etc. is those are the type of horses being produced in New York and why doing well in the NY state bred program is no small acomplishment. Both Concerto(Florida) and Benchmark(California) benefit from being in state bred programs as well and yet neither are as statistically strong as RM.


The only thing RM lacks is a hype machine and that isn't worth two dead flies save for the novices when being fleeced at the sales and when paying for over priced stud fees.

[DDT]

horsenuts

I have not been arguing against Raffie's Majesty, I have been arguing against your hype about his AEI/CEI and average/median earnings per starter because they are misleading statistics due to the fact that New York breds running in restricted company have many opportunities to earn a share of large purses. You mention Funny Cide, Indian Blessing and Commentator as being examples of the tough New York bred program, however, these three were not sired by a stallion standing in New York. There are many cases of New York breds winning just one race but earning over $60,000 in the process. Raffie has sired one stakes winner that won in open company, Joe's Majesty, he won a 53K starter stakes at Delta Downs. Raffie now has six stakes winners, Stud Muffin won the Noble Nashua for state breds this year, bringing his total number of stakes winners to 6 and his up to date stakes winner percentage to 7.6%.

You want to see a hype machine read his add in the Bloodhorse Stallion Register.

I continue to say that RM is a good regional sire and offers New York breeders a good outcross for all of their Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector line broodmares. Not once have I said otherwise.

DDT

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

I have not been arguing against Raffie's Majesty, I have been arguing against your hype about his AEI/CEI and average/median earnings per starter because they are misleading statistics due to the fact that New York breds running in restricted company have many opportunities to earn a share of large purses. You mention Funny Cide, Indian Blessing and Commentator as being examples of the tough New York bred program, however, these three were not sired by a stallion standing in New York. There are many cases of New York breds winning just one race but earning over $60,000 in the process. Raffie has sired one stakes winner that won in open company, Joe's Majesty, he won a 53K starter stakes at Delta Downs. Raffie now has six stakes winners, Stud Muffin won the Noble Nashua for state breds this year, bringing his total number of stakes winners to 6 and his up to date stakes winner percentage to 7.6%.

You want to see a hype machine read his add in the Bloodhorse Stallion Register.

I continue to say that RM is a good regional sire and offers New York breeders a good outcross for all of their Northern Dancer/Mr. Prospector line broodmares. Not once have I said otherwise.

DDT

Raffie's Majesty statistics speak for themselves. You continue to denigrate them yet no horse you list is as statistically strong. You list Benchmark and Concerto as though they are national studs not benefitting from a state bred program which is wrong. Benchmark stands in California and has for years and Concerto has been in Florida for a similar time frame. Both are regional state stallions. Granted they have each sired a nice horse able to compete on the national level but they have been bred to better mares in larger quanity.


I'm well aware of the NY program and to think it is easier from a purse earning standpoint then Caifornia or Florida is a stretch. Add to that if NY is so easy why does RM have the best AEI to CI along with the top earnings per starter and median and not a supposed 'good' NY sire like say Freud who stands for $10,000? Freud's stats fall way short of what RM has accomplished. Yet people support Freeud at $10,000 while RM is a relative unknown at $3,000.


It's hype over substance all too often but statistics can't be hyped and RM's statistics speak for themselves for those willing to read and judge accordingly. Add to that the rare outcross RM brings while a stud like Freud is simply another 'me too' regarding his bloodline. You have to look long and hard anymore to find a stud that is free of Mr P and ND for that much needed hybrid vigor that TB breeding so desperatley lacks in American racing today. RM brings a LOT to the table all things considered and is a bargain at $3,000.

[DDT]

horsenuts

If Raffie's Majesty is such a hidden treasure why is it that NY breeders are not using him, is it because AEI is not the only statistic that is important when selecting a sire, or is it like I have been saying all along, the AEI is misleading because of the beefed up purses available? RM seldom sires a two year old than can race, his foals need time to mature, breeders know that and have avoided him and his trumped up AEI. I only listed some stallions that have comparable AEI's with no regard to what state they were standing in. I could have added Put It Back to the list, but it matters not, you are sold on RM, so get some mares, breed to him and then pay the feed, vet and training bills until they are 4 year olds and you might just breed a New York statebred winner, maybe even a New York statebred stakes winner, but if you are trying to breed a horse that can compete in open company you better look elsewhere.

DDT

[horsenuts]

horsenuts

If Raffie's Majesty is such a hidden treasure why is it that NY breeders are not using him, is it because AEI is not the only statistic that is important when selecting a sire, or is it like I have been saying all along, the AEI is misleading because of the beefed up purses available? RM seldom sires a two year old than can race, his foals need time to mature, breeders know that and have avoided him and his trumped up AEI. I only listed some stallions that have comparable AEI's with no regard to what state they were standing in. I could have added Put It Back to the list, but it matters not, you are sold on RM, so get some mares, breed to him and then pay the feed, vet and training bills until they are 4 year olds and you might just breed a New York statebred winner, maybe even a New York statebred stakes winner, but if you are trying to breed a horse that can compete in open company you better look elsewhere.

DDT

Breeders avoid him because of his pedigree more then anything as the stumps at the sales only recognize Storm Cat and Mr P. in today's market. Which shows why the betterment of the breed has ben regressing for decades.


You can have the quick start two year olds that usually require surgery after 2-3 starts with most never heard from again and why so many stallions that sire two year olds have a low median. It's cheaper to wait on a horse then have to have surgery followed by a lengthy rehab and layoff only to have a cheapened up often times crippled horse upon returning.


A stallion that has a 1.65 AEI to a 1.14 CI with a $67,000 average earnings per starter and a $35,000+ median is an outstanding sire. I realize most in the industry like to see an inverted AEI to CI with a mediocre AEpS and median but that is not how to accuratley judge a stallions performance. Most five and even some six figure stallions don't have a $35,000 median average as in the case of Raffie's Majesty.

Defending poor statistics while denigrating outstanding stats has become common place in the industry as sales over the past few decades show. I don't recommend following the crowd if you want to try and hold your own in this business.

[DDT]

horsenuts

For the last time, I am not making light of RM's AEI or his average/median earnings per starter, I am saying that the AEI is boosted by the NY program with higher purses. Last year, his best showing on the NY stallion list, his average per runner was $29,658 almost 10 times his stud fee, but, it is going down, and in all probability so will his AEI as time goes by.

I do not know why NY breeders ignore him for the most part but his sire was one of the best NY stallions ever to stand in the state, maybe the best. RM was a pretty good runner himself, so pedigree may not be the main reason for his small crops. He had 29 mares last year so maybe the tide is changing. For all who support him I wish them luck.

DDT

[griff]

Valiant Nature by His Majesty at Naylee Farm, WV for $3,500
Harley Qutnn by Valiant Nature at Godstone Farm, PA for $500
Cetewayo by His Majesty at Godstone Fram , PA for $2,500
Go For Gin by Cormorant at Bonita Farm, MD for $4,000
Albert The Great by Go For Ginat Pin Oak Lane Fram, PA for $4,000

griff

[CampRiver]

My stallion, "Winloc's Nelson" traces back to Ribot, however, I think I am located a little out of your way

[innisfail]

Repriced Who stands where Ribot stood, has princequillo through His broodmare sire Quack. He is in Kentucky. He is listed as private but I beleive he is economically priced, and is a good breed to race option.