as seen in today's Blood Horse "Understanding and Preventing Catastrophic Injuries"--he's asking whether we're breeding weaker horses:
"As we presented during NBC's round table discussion on the major issues of horse racing in Pimilico, Md prior to the running of the 133rd Preakness Stakes, there is no scientific evidence that we are breeding friable horses. At present this remains an unprovable hypothesis."
Larry Bramlage on breeding:
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ratherrapid
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I think that Dr. Bramlage is a very good scientist, and if you listen to him often, he is careful to be 100% technically accurate about scientific data and studies. I wouldn't doubt that he has a private opinion that horses are more unsound now than they were 50 years ago, but he is a person who is often recruited to peer-review veterinary studies. That is a process by which a person who is known to be expert in the field reviews a study, and points out accuracies and places where interpretive errors could occur. When you do that often, you train yourself to be very careful about jumping a step in a logical progression. He's not saying that we are not breeding unsoundness. He's just saying that studies have not draw a clear line of logical progression yet. It may still happen, but every study so far has a flaw or an opening that leads to possible other conclusions.
"When I am on my deathbed, I imagine I will say, 'Thank God I did that'" - Arthur Hancock, on buying back Gato del Sol from Europe after Exceller was killed in a slaughterhouse in Sweden.
majxmom wrote:I think that Dr. Bramlage is a very good scientist, and if you listen to him often, he is careful to be 100% technically accurate about scientific data and studies. I wouldn't doubt that he has a private opinion that horses are more unsound now than they were 50 years ago, but he is a person who is often recruited to peer-review veterinary studies. That is a process by which a person who is known to be expert in the field reviews a study, and points out accuracies and places where interpretive errors could occur. When you do that often, you train yourself to be very careful about jumping a step in a logical progression. He's not saying that we are not breeding unsoundness. He's just saying that studies have not draw a clear line of logical progression yet. It may still happen, but every study so far has a flaw or an opening that leads to possible other conclusions.
One loook at # of starts horses are making in contrast to 20+ years and back and the trend does not show horses as being as resilient and durable. Two year olds are lightly raced in comparison to back in the 70s and if one tries to run top two year olds of today the way Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Affirmed and Alydar did they fall apart after 4-5 starts or simply cheapen up to where they can no longer compete against the best of their generation. Curlin has been the exception and he never ran as a two year old and has made all of 12 life time starts midway through his 4 year old year. Contrast that too the top horses from 20+ years ago.
Bramlage is hiding behind the fact that no definitive clinical trials have been run so it is not conclusive..... kind of like the tobacco companies saying there was no connection to lung disease and cancer before conclusive trials and data showed otherwise.
People can believe what they want and the Ky breeding industry can try and fool the people a bit longer but anyone paying half attention to racing knows the trend and it is not good regarding the breeding of durable, sound horses.
Re: Larry Bramlage on breeding:
ratherrapid wrote:"As we presented during NBC's round table discussion on the major issues of horse racing in Pimilico, Md prior to the running of the 133rd Preakness Stakes, there is no scientific evidence that we are breeding friable horses. At present this remains an unprovable hypothesis."
Hey, at least he referenced Round Table, who is a great source of stamina.
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louis finochio
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Sue Stover Cal Davis is doing a bone density test on TB that have been injured & had breakdowns.
Through inbreeding the Tb are using a smaller shoe than 30 years ago. The outcross NP sire lines is down to 5% of the breed.
The synthetic tracks will not breed a sound Tb, that starts with a mating of soundness not fashion.
Through inbreeding the Tb are using a smaller shoe than 30 years ago. The outcross NP sire lines is down to 5% of the breed.
The synthetic tracks will not breed a sound Tb, that starts with a mating of soundness not fashion.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
I'm not sure we are breeding horses that are genetically less sound than 20 years ago. I don't even know if it is possible to skew the breed in 20 years even if one tried.
I do believe the use of medications to mask unsoundness is far more prevelant than 2 or 3 decades ago and I know with the advent of sealed racetracks during wet weather, racing surfaces are much harder on those horses running over it.
The game is much harder to play today by virtue of the cost to play the game. Horses become hunter jumpers quickly if they fail to prove racing ability at $60-$90 a day..
I do believe the use of medications to mask unsoundness is far more prevelant than 2 or 3 decades ago and I know with the advent of sealed racetracks during wet weather, racing surfaces are much harder on those horses running over it.
The game is much harder to play today by virtue of the cost to play the game. Horses become hunter jumpers quickly if they fail to prove racing ability at $60-$90 a day..
zinn21 wrote:I'm not sure we are breeding horses that are genetically less sound than 20 years ago. I don't even know if it is possible to skew the breed in 20 years even if one tried.
Couple things. First, we rush 'em into the breeding sheds earlier nowadays, (3-4 year olds) so 20-30 years represent multi GENERATIONS of horses. I promise you, with advancements in surgery technique blended with the ever dominant desire for perfection, 20 years of unchecked breeding added with rampant drug usage can assuredly hurt the breed.
zinn21 wrote:I do believe the use of medications to mask unsoundness is far more prevelant than 2 or 3 decades ago and I know with the advent of sealed racetracks during wet weather, racing surfaces are much harder on those horses running over it.
Absolutely.
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louis finochio
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with speed being breed to speed for financial purposes we have created a thoroughbred for a fashion marketplace. the result is these thoroughbreds of today there are produced from the speed matings are striking the ground too hard, as their action when you watch them work or race they have many unsound as problems and there are a high percentage that are unraced.
Those old NP sire lines of the past gave those Tb a kinder action and a smooth way of going as those stamina Tb made a prolific amount of lifetime starts. when we lost those NP sire lines are Tb became a role model of the QH. As Baffert said the thoroughbreds of today are resembling the QH, as the speed to speed matings have created this.
Those old NP sire lines of the past gave those Tb a kinder action and a smooth way of going as those stamina Tb made a prolific amount of lifetime starts. when we lost those NP sire lines are Tb became a role model of the QH. As Baffert said the thoroughbreds of today are resembling the QH, as the speed to speed matings have created this.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
The statistics do indicate the breed is becoming less sound. However, interestingly I bred a horse that was exported to the Dominican Republic as a 2-year-old. He is now 5 and has made 49 starts and earned a fair amount of money as well. Is he really that sound, or is it other factors that have allowed him to make that many starts? I really do wonder.
louis finochio wrote:with speed being breed to speed for financial purposes we have created a thoroughbred for a fashion marketplace. the result is these thoroughbreds of today there are produced from the speed matings are striking the ground too hard, as their action when you watch them work or race they have many unsound as problems and there are a high percentage that are unraced.
Those old NP sire lines of the past gave those Tb a kinder action and a smooth way of going as those stamina Tb made a prolific amount of lifetime starts. when we lost those NP sire lines are Tb became a role model of the QH. As Baffert said the thoroughbreds of today are resembling the QH, as the speed to speed matings have created this.
The muscle bound horse has been in vogue for the past 30 years or so. Gone are the 'greyhound look' thoroughbreds and with that added muscle and bulk of the recent era has come more concusion that accompanies the added speed of the modern quarterhorse..... eerrrr.. thoroughbred. The added pounding from the additional muscle mass on those twiggy little legs is a recipe for trouble....... even disaster.
Northern Dancer was an early version of the modern thoroughbred with his compactness and shapely body he has been emulated ever since. BUT with far more bulk and size added to the modern horse the ND 'look' has grown beyond capacity for holding up to the rigors of racing. ND was a small horse with ample muscle.... but today's horses are all to often big horses with massive amounts of muscle. Storm Cat is a grandson of ND who looks a lot like his grandfather only much bigger. Is it any coincidence that Storm Cat offspring struggle to stay sound?
Last edited by horsenuts on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think it is actually impossible to determine if there has been a shift in the physiology of the breed, as Dr. Bramalage suggests. Why? Because so many other factors in the game have changed, it is impossible to separate changes in breeding from changes in how the horses are raised, from changes in how they are trained, from changes in medication, from changes in track surfaces, from changes in economics of racing, etc. The game is radically different now compared to 30 years ago and many of those changes will have affects on the number of starts a horse makes.
My personal opinion is that the young horses, just like young humans today, are too sedentary. With growing populations, farms have gotten smaller meaning paddocks for foals, weanlings and yearlings are smaller. Training has changed with horses getting less speed work to try and prevent them from getting unnecessary chips, but it also denies the horse the opportunity to build strong bones and tendons. You can't blame these factors on genetics, but there are many many studies that link bone, tendon and ligament strength to appropriate youthful exercise.
My personal opinion is that the young horses, just like young humans today, are too sedentary. With growing populations, farms have gotten smaller meaning paddocks for foals, weanlings and yearlings are smaller. Training has changed with horses getting less speed work to try and prevent them from getting unnecessary chips, but it also denies the horse the opportunity to build strong bones and tendons. You can't blame these factors on genetics, but there are many many studies that link bone, tendon and ligament strength to appropriate youthful exercise.
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louis finochio
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SC is very crooked, I am not looking forward to those 3 X 3 Matings of SC, it will be a disaster.
As many trainers told me, those hard dirt tracks stung the feet of those ND, as many became sore. They were then sent across the pond to race on soft turf and they became the rage of Europe as they cleaned House and then some.
As many trainers told me, those hard dirt tracks stung the feet of those ND, as many became sore. They were then sent across the pond to race on soft turf and they became the rage of Europe as they cleaned House and then some.
Those without sin cast the first stone.
Louis Finochio
Louis Finochio
louis
I do not know which trainers told you that sons of Northern Dancer could not handle running on North American dirt tracks when in fact the Northern Dancer european invasion started with Nijinski II's Triple Crown and continued until Northern Dancer was pensioned. Virtually all of his sons at auction were purchased by Sangster and European buyers for the soul purpose of getting a classic win and going to stud. Very few sons of Northern Dancer were ever raced in North America and some had success Dixieland Band, Viceregal, Herat are a few. The facts here paint a different picture than what those trainers were talking about when discussing Northern Dancer.
DDT
I do not know which trainers told you that sons of Northern Dancer could not handle running on North American dirt tracks when in fact the Northern Dancer european invasion started with Nijinski II's Triple Crown and continued until Northern Dancer was pensioned. Virtually all of his sons at auction were purchased by Sangster and European buyers for the soul purpose of getting a classic win and going to stud. Very few sons of Northern Dancer were ever raced in North America and some had success Dixieland Band, Viceregal, Herat are a few. The facts here paint a different picture than what those trainers were talking about when discussing Northern Dancer.
DDT