Hare Brained Idea?

[madelyn]

I think that a national ban on steroids is a GREAT idea.

I have another very "green" idea - ie: not fully mature. How about KY stallion awards (there are currently none) for stallions standing in KY that made more than 20 starts? That might be an incentive to keep horses racing a little longer while indirectly promoting sounder horses?

Comments?

[Toccet02]

I like the stallion incentive. Bad breeding practices are being encouraged by greed, so why not offer money for better breeding practices?

[aardvark]

I dont like any incentive programs. Get rid of it all.

Any money a state wants to contribute to racing should go directly to purses. Bigger purses, more owners, more entries, stallions producing winners will have progeny that sell for higher prices.

let everybody stand on their own four feet.

[madelyn]

aardvark, are you a breeder?

If so, you are welcome to return any uncashed incentive fund monies you have received, rather than pay your hay bill, vet bill, feed bill, bad luck bill (mares abort, resorb, and a million other things that happen). Or you could sign them over to me!

Indiana is a state whose TB breeding business shrivelled up to nearly nil (250 or so TB's a YEAR in the whole state) until last year when the slots beefed up purses and the ITOBA was able to double breeders' awards.

Breeder's awards are another way to keep a valuable portion of the business afloat - no breeders means no horses to train or bet on. The sales venue has proven to be very unreliable in returning breeders' costs. Breeders also contribute in a meaningful way to a state's economy, from buying feed and hay, paying vets and farm help, etc. Bettors don't. The KBIF was a long way coming, but I, for one, am one KY breeder that is thrilled it is here. Breeder's incentives are actually a form of quality control, since the breeder get nothing unless the offspring actually WINS a race. There are no breeder's awards for place or show.

[aardvark]

To get IN Bred status doesnt a breeder need to use a state stallion at least every other year?

What Indiana stallion is commercial to breed your 50K mare back to? Doesnt the breeder lose money to be eligible for breeders awards?
So Indiana Breeder with quality mare has to board in KY spending money to get KY Bred status. Will that money be recouped in breeders awards?

I would prefer an open market. If I were in KY I would be ok with a closed one.

[madelyn]

To get IN Bred status doesnt a breeder need to use a state stallion at least every other year?

No. So long as the mare passes the scratch test of being in the state, in foal, by November 1st of the year bred, there is no breed back at this time. For Indiana BRED, that is. There are a bunch of new races for Indiana SIRED that, I believe, are intended to try to attract a better class of stallion to Indiana. Roguelet is the true expert on all this.

What Indiana stallion is commercial to breed your 50K mare back to?

None that I am aware of, see response above. Of course you are welcome to buy/claim a better quality stallion to stand in Indiana.

Doesnt the breeder lose money to be eligible for breeders awards?

There is no cost to the breeder to get awards in Indiana. KY charges $60 per mare/foal for nomination. On top, Indiana has OWNER awards also. The partners I own K Lynn with are in line for a 20% purse OWNER award for her win last week in a $13.5K msw. We are not the breeders, just the owners of an IN-bred.

So Indiana Breeder with quality mare has to board in KY spending money to get KY Bred status. Will that money be recouped in breeders awards?

If you get a GOOD foal, that can win, say, 5 races a year, I think it would be recouped. The KBIF award is 25% of the purse. This is no different that other states with mare residency requirements. What makes KY really different is that there are NO stallion awards, so the stallion owner has to get everything from stud fees.

I would prefer an open market. If I were in KY I would be ok with a closed one.

And you don't see any purely self-interest in that perspective?

[Roguelet]

What Indiana stallion is commercial to breed your 50K mare back to?

Madelyn pretty much covered your questions but I just wanted to address this one question quickly.

Trust me when I tell you that there are plenty of breeders who breed in Indiana with high dollar mares. There are also plenty of very nice stallions in Indiana. If by "commercial" you are referring to the type who, by their name alone, will attract the very highest bids at the Keeneland select sales... probably none. However, that's not currently the goal of those people who are breeding to Indiana stallions.

The current goal of the people breeding to Indiana stallions are either to produce Indiana SIRED horses or to qualify a late incoming mare's offspring for Indiana BRED status. Either way, the reason these people are focusing on Indiana bred or sired horses is because they want the horses to run IN INDIANA and be "commercial" for lack of a better word IN INDIANA (meaning they want a market for their foal in Indiana.)

Those who's goal is to produce Indiana bred and/or sired horses are going to be driven by those owners, breeders, and stallion awards. In order to get those awards your horse needs to win. Therefore, why wouldn't you want to qualify the offspring of your $50K mares for those very nice (and climbing) incentives and awards, therefore (hopefully) giving your horse a better chance at earning you all of those incentives and awards than the horses out of lesser quality mares?

If the goal is to breed really nice quality offspring, you should breed the best you can afford to breed just like you should if your focus in in Kentucky or any other state. And if you get a wonderful horse out of that $50K mare... one who can compete in stakes races... you will get awards for those stakes races in any state, not just Indiana. What better way to encourage quality growth in the state? We don't want to just sit back and watch Kentucky grow; we want to try to improve our own area.

Remember, "The horse doesn't know what state he was foaled in..."

[aardvark]

I appreciate the commentary and I understand many want to participate in state bred programs for breeders or stallion awards. Not all state programs allow for the mare to be bred out of state every year and by commercial I mean being able to take your prospect to any sale targeted and be able to sell at a profit comiserate with the value of the mare and the sire selected.

State restrictions of any kind restrict free trade and limit an in-state breeder to the state bred rules and sales venues where that state bred prospect will sell. I realize I will be in the minority here on this topic, but I would prefer to choose the best stallion for my mare where ever he happens to be and then be able to target any sale for the best possible sale price. So, if a state wants to put money into the industry I would rather it go directly to purses. State bred programs create an artificial perception of success. A breeders success comes from getting a good price at sale, producing a foal that can compete so the next prospect may be even more valuable. Breeders and stallion awards come at a price.

[dray33]

How about KY stallion awards (there are currently none) for stallions standing in KY that made more than 20 starts?

That would be awesome for the 3 horses that qualify
I like the idea, because maybe some of the larger farms would go after some of these sturdy horses.

[madelyn]

dray, don't you think it might encourage owners to keep racing their stallion prospects?

If, as you say, there are only three stallions now in the entire state of KY who qualify (including my own gorgeous babe, Rocking Trick), it sure would be a "cheap" boost - and cost the KBIF very little.

[kimberley mine]

It's a good idea on paper but falls apart in the real world. If you used 20 starts as a metric, you rule out useful proven stallions who sire sound stock AND unproven good runners with an arbitrary number. That number would rule out, among others:

Gone West Nijinsky II
Silver Deputy Blushing Groom
Smoke Glacken Rahy
Pleasantly Perfect Sadlers Wells
Include Pleasant Colony
Street Cry Sunday Silence
Runaway Groom Saint Liam

Ah yes, but Street Cry, Nijinsky, and Blushing Groom were campaigned in Europe, where they don't race as often, right? And Pleasantly Perfect had an infection, and Include and Saint Liam made 20 starts each, and...

Using number of starts alone as a way to encourage sound breeding has too many pitfalls to work. I do think that it would be nice to encourage owners to *race* their stock for longer, but saying that to send your nice filly to Gone West is a recipe for disaster and early breakdown because he made 17 lifetime starts instead of 20 is a real stretch.

[madelyn]

Okay, so pick a number. 15? >10?

It doesn't "rule out" a mare owner choosing to breed to that stallion. Stallion awards go to the STALLION owner. It might, however, affect stallion selection for some stud farms.

[KamiBrooks]

I'm confused, what would be the basis for paying the award in your program?

How about an incentive to the stallion owner and the breeder for any KY bred horse that makes its 20th start instead? Sort of starting from the ground up, but that could also discourage pounding the snot out of young horses.

Actually, I'd like to see the jockey club pay out nationally to the stallion owner, breeder and trainer on 20th, 30th and 40th starts. Or they could subsidize incentives for races written for horses with 20, 30 or 40 or more starts. But since that would be supporting the non-elete of the industry, I won't hold my breath.

[kimberley mine]

I like that idea better. Reward the breeders (stallion and mare) for producing durable horses AND provide and incentive to run the stock, without penalizing either side.

[dray33]

Okay, so pick a number. 15? >10?

Whats wrong with 20? Incent them for the right thing. If a horse is becoming a stallion off 4 starts, he is probably some fashion superstar (Vindication - Candy Ride). They don't need incentives.