The breeding world has gone mad

[camohn]

The few and really busy warmblood stallions I know of that serve those kind of books are all AI jobs with the collection split a few times. Some even from frozen semen previously collected in the off season. Some of the popular standardbreds like at Hannover Shoe are split into an amazing number of doses. I just can't see a stallion LC that many mares without looking really awful or keeling over or having really bad sperm counts. Wonder what the in foal rate is?? If it is high it would be very suspect.

[louis finochio]

Any time you use up a TB reserves, racing or breeding, you are headed for trouble. I would like to know if the best foals are the ones that are from the first 50 mares that were bred. Once the well has gone dry there is no way to replace it. Thirty years ago most of the leading stallions were booked to 50 mares or less.

With the greater number of foals, it will be of interest to see the stallions % of winners vs his foals. This will tell the tale as this assembly line breeding plan must be stopped.

[LSB]

With the greater number of foals, it will be of interest to see the stallions % of winners vs his foals. This will tell the tale as this assembly line breeding plan must be stopped.

I really wish more breeders would pay attention to the percentages rather than just the numbers. Instead, people seem to look to see what's at the top of the lists and nevermind how they got there.

As for the stallion owners reducing books on their own, there is currently no incentive whatsoever for them to do so. Horses like Giant's Causeway and FuPeg earned hundreds of millions of dollars in stud fees before their first offspring ever set foot on a race track. Even if they were huge failures as sires, it wouldn't have matter financially to their connections as they'd already gotten their investment money back before that fact ever could have become known. It's a no risk proposition for them.

[freddymo]

You know I thought u where crazy with the 100ths of million comment. Then I did the math assume Giants get 200 mares a year at 125k per. Which is high.. I doubt there are 200 fees paid. Some if not most of the mares are syndicated oriented right... I mean if I own share in Giants don't I get a certain amount of mares to be serviced by contract? Even still it could be 10 mill a year in ancillary sevice fees. Smarty will pay the back the 39 mil in about 5 years at 100k. Al you have to be is right about the stallions success...LOL and you make a ton of cash

[henthorn]

This is the excerpt directly from the Jockey Club rules book to clarify what is and is not allowed for AI in the US.

D. To be eligible for registration, a foal must be the result of a stallion’s Breeding with a broodmare (which is the physical mounting of a broodmare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the reproductive tract). As an aid to the Breeding, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the uterus of the broodmare being bred. A natural gestation must take place in, and delivery must be from, the body of the same broodmare in which the foal was conceived. Without limiting the above, any foal resulting from or produced by the processes of Artificial Insemination, Embryo Transfer or Transplant, Cloning or any other form of genetic manipulation not herein specified, shall not be eligible for registration.

One of the ways these huge numbers of mares serviced can be obtained is through shuttling half year, so that up to twice as many mares can be served if they are available.
A second reason is that these farms use state-of-the-art methods to determine when the mare is actually ovulating, so that the mare gets to the stallion at the proper time.
Another is that efficient high-volume stud farms use a portion of the ejaculate from each mounting to introduce additional semen into the mare's cervix, no doubt. So most mares will take on one cover. At many or most stud farms, only natural cover is used, and several covers may be required per mare. And of course, teasers may be the only means of determining readiness to mate.

What I have trouble imagining is how a mare who is not boarded at the stud farm can be caught on one early season cover when so many mares have to be scheduled per stallion.

I believe we are seeing a definite divide between an upper crust stallion population with its attendant super-rich clients, and everybody else, such that breed-to-race at regional tracks will be the only way for most people to have a chance of profitability. And that the greed for multi-million dollar profits will create less and less diversity among the graded stakes populations. Stallion farms all over the country will go out of business due to inability to recruit sufficient mares at profitable stud fees.

[horsenuts]

Any time you use up a TB reserves, racing or breeding, you are headed for trouble. I would like to know if the best foals are the ones that are from the first 50 mares that were bred. Once the well has gone dry there is no way to replace it. Thirty years ago most of the leading stallions were booked to 50 mares or less.

With the greater number of foals, it will be of interest to see the stallions % of winners vs his foals. This will tell the tale as this assembly line breeding plan must be stopped.

The breeding industry of today reminds me of the stock market of 1999 and we all know how that ended.

Don't these mare breeders see what is right there before everyone who looks?.. i.e the stallions with the fewest mares bred were the best on a percentage basis in this past year's first crop studs i.e Successful Appeal with only 37 2 year olds towered above all others. Clearly there is a correlation to when quanity rises quality suffers.. and suffers significantly. Other studs who did very well with limited # of foals was Lion Hearted and Northern Afleet. Of course now all 3 are being booked to 100+ mares this season so look for a serious decline from said stallions.

Of course the breeders themselves are breeding many of these mares in hopes of future sales etc. But eventually someone(s) are going to be left holding the bag. As a particular breeder I'm searching long and hard for studs with small books for reasons stated(and yes they are out there if one scours around).

Bold Ruler was a GREAT sire WITH a LIMITED # of MARES.. which is why he was great. How big was Danzig's first crop that still holds the record for earnings by a first year stallion set over 20 years ago? The %percentages tell us all we need to know if we but look.

Why people are paying $100,000+ fees for these studs that are producing 100s of foals a year when there will be "a copy on every corner" is beyond me... but rest assured the day of reckoning is not far off.

[griff]

First, breeding 300 plus marers and getting 300 plus mares in-foal are very diferient accomplishments. Even the 50 to 100 mare books only average about 50% live foals.

Second, is there any evidence that breeding a stallion many times is harmful ? Yes, I understand the fertility goes down but is there any evidence the stallion is harmed. [Please don't tell me it makes them go blind].

Also, I don't understand what the concern is about shuttling stallions between North and South America. Is there evidence that it harms a stillion to have sex in two hemisheres. Personally, it seems humane to allow them to continue to breed and not arbitrarilly force them go cold turkey.

Remember, too much of a good thing is wonderful.

griff

[horsenuts]

I'm all for the free market and whatever it can bear. I believe folks are just pointing out that the quality of these mega sized crops is simply not there to justify these high prices.

If everyone "has a copy" of Fupeg/Giant's Causeway etc. why pay a premium for them. And then when one compares what their crops have done on a percentage basis in comparison to Successful Appeal/Northern Afleet/Lion Hearted/Catineus who all had significantly smaller crops and were bred to inferior mares in most cases, the question must be asked: Why pay $150,000 for something that is being mass produced which leads to a significant drop off in quality. The #s tell the bottom line.

[henthorn]

I'm already starting to look at the volume of Storm Cat sons and going "ho-hum". Imagine when the same is true of Giant's Causeway, Fusaichi Pegasus, etc. Europe is years ahead of the US on mega-bookings, and now they are having trouble finding outcrossed stallions to breed the large volume of Sadler's Wells, Danehill, Shirley Heights mares to on their own continent and much smaller horse population. Just as the US needed to import outside stallions to outcross with the US mare population last century, now Europe is importing stallions from the states to counter the trend to a shrinking genetic pool.

[griff]

Sorry guys but your position that it is harmful to the breed when the superior stallions are allowed to sire a larger percentage of the foals is not supported by what has happended in other livestock industires.

The bottom one-third of the current dairy herd is out producing what the top trird was doing 50 years ago before AI. The same with the beef, swine, chicken, and other livestock industry. The superior sires ability to increase their production has significantly enhanced all breeds that have been touched by this technique.

The same can be said for the Quarter Horse, Warmblood & Arabian breds. Superior sires are producing a larger precentage of the total offspring and the quality of the overall national herd in increasing by leaps and bounds. And these industries don't seem to have a huge problem finding acceptable replacement sires.

All we do by denying AI in our industry is keep the studs fees artificially high and insure a larger portion of the foals will be sired by inferior stallions.

griff

[camohn]

While only true of the WB breeds: the stallions have to be approved. When a popular stallion has a bazilllion sons presented for breeding approval:Even if they are all great not all get approved because they do not want too much of one line in the gene pool. The other breeds: just controlled by the market. If I understand it correctly the APHA did used to require stallion approvals but that ended in the 80's.

[mary syers]

Griff,

I'll take you to task on the Quarterhorse, because I know something about them. Yes the animals produced today are superior in looks--but are they in soundness or talent? The QH, a basically sound warmblood, is now a breed of poor legged, poor footed. unsound halter horses which look glorious, but hurt. We did this in a generation of men. We did it rapidly and badly. There are exceptions, of course, but QH breeders will never see the necessity for soundness and this once awesome breed of horse can nolonger come back to the sane, sound, cow horse it once was. If you don't believe me, go to a champion western pleasure class. No horse in the ribbons isn't sore. Go to a sale; most 5 or older QH's in any local sale are navicular or worse. The TB breed has already started down this slippery slope. Over breeding to a few stallions will accelerate the process. The truth--speed is juxtaposition to soundness. The more the TB emphasises speed, the more the TB industry bottlenecks its genetics in an already in-bred breed, the quicker it slides down that slope. Do you really want to see a breed of racehorses where starting 5 times is the rule; where breakdowns on the track are the rule? I want to see the heart of Forgo, the guts of Tom Fool, the cool excellence of Damacus. I want to see great racehorses eye to eye in the stretch on there hearts. If we keep going down this path, we will never see the likes, because no good horse will be sound enough to run the stretch and all we'll have is a glorified QHs. Fast and beautiful, but incapable of withstanding and eye to eye run. What a loss. Sorry about the soap box. I just hate this stupidity. Again, if you don't believe me, walk through a dairy barn. The cows may produce more milk, but they can't walk. Selecting for a single trait works. It just doesn't produce the class of horse I love. Mary

[reenci]

Any time you use up a TB reserves, racing or breeding, you are headed for trouble. I would like to know if the best foals are the ones that are from the first 50 mares that were bred. Once the well has gone dry there is no way to replace it. Thirty years ago most of the leading stallions were booked to 50 mares or less.

With the greater number of foals, it will be of interest to see the stallions % of winners vs his foals. This will tell the tale as this assembly line breeding plan must be stopped.

lou , my thought's exactly after the first 50 its all downhill in my modest opinion.it only stands to reason.and on another point.....we will {mare owner's}never be told that the %of nice horses are from, say the first 50-60 cover's. but i got to think common sense tells you so.

[reenci]

First, breeding 300 plus marers and getting 300 plus mares in-foal are very diferient accomplishments. Even the 50 to 100 mare books only average about 50% live foals.

Second, is there any evidence that breeding a stallion many times is harmful ? Yes, I understand the fertility goes down but is there any evidence the stallion is harmed. [Please don't tell me it makes them go blind].

Also, I don't understand what the concern is about shuttling stallions between North and South America. Is there evidence that it harms a stillion to have sex in two hemisheres. Personally, it seems humane to allow them to continue to breed and not arbitrarilly force them go cold turkey.

Remember, too much of a good thing is wonderful.

griff

griff, i have noticed alot of these stallion's growing excess hair around the hoof's

[kimberley mine]

Second, is there any evidence that breeding a stallion many times is harmful ? Yes, I understand the fertility goes down but is there any evidence the stallion is harmed. [Please don't tell me it makes them go blind].

griff

Any repetitive motion will cause injuries over time as the various bits wear out. For a stallion doing live cover every day, 3 times a day, it places a huge amount of stress on his back and his hind legs.