Stamina AND speed

[parlo]

Well, since Tod Sloan imported the American riding style to GB around 1900 the racing times improved considerably (around 3 sec in the Epsom Derby) - this has nothing to do with improvement of the breed - it's an environmental factor.

Even Tesio saw, what he wanted to see.

[Bid]

Using the 8F as a guide, Dr. Fager comes to mind as an example. My uncle (86 yrs old) still swears he was the fastest horse he's ever seen.

[Elles]

Using the 8F as a guide, Dr. Fager comes to mind as an example. My uncle (86 yrs old) still swears he was the fastest horse he's ever seen.

But could he also stay 1,5 miles and more? Or is he a case of speed without stamina?

Parlo, you are absolutely right.

I remember reading in the book "Sirelines" that there was a horse that was bred for the 1,5 mile races and did race and win at those races as a three year old. As a two year though he was able to win from horses that were bred to be sprinters and only raced in the shorter distances at 3 years and older. I can't remeber the name of this horse though.

And than look at the distances Buckpasser raced and won over:
http://www.stallions.com.au/historical/ ... record.asp

And than Fairway, racing and winning from 5f till over 2 miles:
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Fairway.html

Horses that can do such things are really something else!

[Bid]

I took this from PQ:

At 2: WON Cowdin S., World's Playground S.; 2ND Champagne S.
At 3: WON New Hampshire Sweepstakes Classic, Hawthorne Gold Cup H., Arlington Classic S., Rockingham Special S., Gotham S., Vosburgh H., Withers S.,Jersey Derby (DQ-placed last); 3RD Woodward S.
At 4: WON Suburban H. (ETR), United Nations H., Washington Park H. (NWR), Californian S., Roseben H., Whitney S., Vosburgh H. (NTR); 2ND Brooklyn H.

Horse Of The Year, Champion Handicap Horse, Champion Sprinter, and Champion Grass Horse in 1968 (age 4).
Elected to Hall of Fame in 1971.
To this day holds the record for a mile on the dirt: 1:32 1/5 (done under 134 pounds).

I haven't had time this morning to look, but I recognize some of these are more than a mile. It's harder to judge modern horses because we simply don't run many 1.5 mile races these days. So, I'm not sure 1.5 is a fair cut off point. Believe me I really would like to see the return to longer racing. It's more fun and you'd see fewer injuries (you see more injuries in people sprinters than people marathoners).

[Elles]

Well, Buckpasser won over 5.5 f till 16 f. That really is something else, TWO miles.
But like Parlo says, Nearco must be about the most terrific horse with the distances he won over.
But ofcourse Dr. Fager had terrific speed and strength and his share of stamina as well.

On the TB heritage site:
Bayardo was one of those rare versatile racehorses who was triumphantly tested for both speed and stamina, winning top races at distances from six furlongs to two and one-half miles.

I know most Americans think that Sadlers Wells blood is too stout but in Europe he is considered a miler himself. Is his blood really too stout for America?

[Elles]

Speed results from muscle and bone structure, Stamina results from muscle, bone, heart and lung function. Horses like Secretariat could have been great sprinters. Precesionalist (sp) won the BC sprint and the Classic.

The same sort of muscle or different muscle? Do different horses have different types of heart and lung function?

[Elles]

His owner-breeder Hislop said: "very often the fastest horses are not the pure sprinters as the faster horses are directed to longer distances just by the racing system".

I don't understand, how and why are the faster horses directed to the longer distances?

[parlo]

Higher prize-money, more prestige, ... better training performances that show their supremacy over pure sprinters ...

[Dave C]

I think you have to keep things in perspective. Speed and stamina are separate traits. A horse (or other organism) can have both but can't use one except at the expense of the other. A horse like Round Table certainly won at sprint distances and route distances, but his average velocity for the route races was much lower than his average velocity for the sprint races. This is the trade off between speed and stamina in action. Most breeders want to breed the horse with stamina for the classics but also possessing the explosive turn of foot. Few succeed because it is not easy to get both traits expressed, but it happens and those are the horses we love to cheer on during the TC chase.

[xfactor fan]

Sprinter muscle is bulky and heavy (fast twitch). Stayer muscle long and lean (slow twitch muscle). It takes lots of cardio to supply the oxygen to all that bulky heavy muscle. So there is a dance between percentage of muscle type and cardio function.

In humans think of long distance runners vs shot putters. Runners are lean, geared for moving efficiently for a long time. Shot Putters who do a short explosive effort, lots of strength short duration, and have lots and lots of muscles.
Decathlon athletes, who have to combine both sustained effort and short bursts of effort tend to be intermediate type. They need enough muscle to perform but not enough to overwhelm the cardio function.

[parlo]

http://thoroughbredgenetics.com/Mitochondrion%206(2006)%2053-66.pdf

[Bill from WA]

Another interesting study.

http://www.ighz.edu.pl/files/objects/22 ... 31-142.pdf

Bill

[Roger]

Dave and Xfactor, those are two of the most important post that have been posted on PQ. It is so simple and basic, but it is the starting point in breeding and in training. Now if we could only simplify putting heart and courage into the equation.

[Retrospectiv]

I'd like to add Easy Goer as what I'd consider a more recent example of a horse with speed and stamina.
While many think of him as a horse who was good at 1 1/2 miles, he was a fast horse from 7 furlongs up.
In his 1st start as a 3yr old he ran the fastest 7 furlongs of the Gulfsteam meet, in April ran his infamous Gotham mile in 1:32 2/5 in a canter (and damn near bested the good Dr's record set in 1968), ran the 2nd fastest Belmont after Secretariat in 2:26, and won later at 1 1/4 miles in under 2:00 as well. That on top of his Champion 2 yr old form, which generally requires early speed and maturity.
It was that talent, versatility and actual speed that he had that made him such a favorite with me. Sunday Silence may have won 3 of 4, but outside of their races together, SS rarely showed the speed in winning races that Easy Goer did.

[Elles]

I am sorry I am not so good at reading and understanding scholarly/scientific studies. What conclusions should I draw from the above studies please?