Drugs: What we've lost...

[Roger]

Not a throw back, just a poor old retired school person, who stole his first horse when he was in the second grade who can't afford much more.

[dray33]

Not a throw back, just a poor old retired school person, who stole his first horse when he was in the second grade who can't afford much more.

Sadly, the racing world today is not made up of running 5 year olds. It's a rare treat to see a happy, healthy 6 year old. Horses used to run like that, now, thats left for the claiming ranks, personal "pet" horses, geldings, etc. Besides fixing the drug issue in racing, they too need to address making series for older horses. A Triple Crown of 4 and up. Gives horse owners a whole new target, gives breeders a whole new product.

[dray33]

As an aside, can someone tell me what big Grade 1 races are run for 4 and up, that are spaced about 3 weeks to a month apart, any track?

[Lucy]

As an aside, can someone tell me what big Grade 1 races are run for 4 and up, that are spaced about 3 weeks to a month apart, any track?

Very few G1's are for four and up - those conditions tend to fall in the first three or four months of the year, late spring most handicaps switch to three and up.

The Donn Handicap & Santa Anita Handicap are for 4+ and are a month apart. To make it a series one would have to either move or upgrade something.

[Lucy]

The Donn Handicap & Santa Anita Handicap are for 4+ and are a month apart. To make it a series one would have to either move or upgrade something.

The Oaklawn Handicap, currently a G2, would fit nicely.

[madelyn]

Well, yes, but there are quite a few for 3 AND UP and I always consider that as something that could be a tough spot for a three year old. It would be interesting to see a "War Horse" series for horses five and up with more than 20 starts each.....

[soundfast]

There are a lot of graded stakes winners at stud that raced at 5 and some at 6 and some were stakes winners at 7 or older. Aldebaran was Champion sprinter and G1 winner at 5. Atticus G1 winner at 5.Badge Of Silver G2 stakes winner G1 placed at 6. Benchmark G2 winner at 7. Best Of The Bests G1 at 5. Bowman's Band G1 placed at 6. Burning Roma G1 winner G3 winner at 6. Catienus G2 placed at 6. Congaree G1 winner at 5. Country Be Gold G2 winner won G3 at 8. Crown Attorney G2 winner at 6. Crafty Shaw G3 winner at 6. David Copperfield G3 at 5. Devil His Due G1 winner G1 placed at 6. Duckhorn G2 winner G3 winner at 5. Dumaani G3 winner at 5. Ecclesiastic G3 winner at 6. Elusive Quality G3 winner at 5. English Channel G1 winner at 5. Even The Score G2 winner at 6. Fabulous Frolic G3 placed at 6. Fastness G1 winner at 6. Five Star Day G2 winner at 5. Forest Wildcat G3 winner at 5. Freefourinternet G2 winner at 6 SP at 7. Freespool G2 placed at 6. Friendly Island G2 winner G1 placed at 6. Ghostzapper G1 winner at 5. Golden Missile G1 winner at 5. Good Reward G1 placed at 5. Graeme Hall G2 winner G2 placed at 5. Hero's Tribute G2 winner G1 placed at 5.Hook And Ladder G1 placed G3 winner at 5. Include G1 winner SW at 5. Intidab G2 winner at 7. Invasor G1 winner at 5. Istan G3 winner at 5. Kela G1 winner at 6 G3 plced at 7. Langfur G1 at 5. Leroidesanimaux G1 at 5. Liberty Gold G3 winner at 7 G1 placed at 5. Lido Palace G1 winner at 5. Lion Tamer G2 winner G1 placed at 5. Lite The Fuse G1 winner at 5. Lost Soldier G3 winner SW at 7. Mass Media G1 winner G1 placed at 5. Master Command G2 winner at 5. Medaglia D'Oro G1 winner at 5. Milwaukee Brew G1 winner at 6. Mister Fotis G2 winner at 5. Mister Phone G1 winner at 5. Mobil G1 placed at 5. Mr. Livingston G3 winner SW at 7. Northern Spur G1 placed at 5. Offlee Wild G1 winner at 5. Old Forester G3 winner at 5. Olmodavor G3 winner G1 placed at 5. Pass Rush G2 winner SP at 7. Patriot Act G2 placed SW at 5. Perfect Soul G1 winner G2 winner at 6. Pies Prospect G1 placed at 5. Pleasantly Perfect G1 winner at 6. Pomeroy G1 winner at 5. Powerscourt G1 winner at 5. Precocity G1 winner G3 winner at 5. Purim G1 winner at 5. Quest G2 winnr SW at 6. Redattore G1 winner at 8. Red Bullet G1 winner SW at 5. Request For Parole G1 winner G1 placed at 6. Saarland G2 winner G3 placed at 5.Saint Stephen G3 winner at 6 SP at 7. Say Florida Sandy G2 winner SW at 9. Seattle Fitz G2 winner G1 placed at 5. Senor Swinger G2 winner SW at 6. Silent Name G2 winner G1 placed at 5. Singspiel G1 winner at 5. Siphon G1 winner at 6. Skip Away G1 winner at 5. Speightstown G1 winner at 6. Spellbinder G2 winner SP at 6. Stormin Fever G1 placed at 5. Strategic Mission G3 winner at 6. Strategic Partner G3 winner G3 placed at 5. Strut The Stage G2 winner G2 placed at 7. Student Council G1 winner at 5. Suave G2 winner at 5. Sun King G2 winner G1 placed at 5. Swain G1 winner at 6. Sweet Return G1 winer SW at 7. Swiss Yodeler G1 winner G2 placed at 5. Take Me Out G3 winner at 6. Taste Of Paradise G1 winner at 6. Texas Glitter G3 winner at 6. Volponi G1 winner G1 placed at 5. Wando HOY Canada SP at 5. Wekiva Springs G1 winner at 5. Western Pride G2 winner G3 winner at 5. etc.

[BenB]

Roger, your last reply makes something clear about your privat situation and your arguements in this kind of topics.

In our part of europe it is not a slighttest problem to race them older horses on the turf. A large number of them are switched to hurdling.

I know that retaining old racehorses is sometimes ( most of the times) giving troubles they ( the horses) are coming back to you and mostly a lot of times.

[Sock Monkey]

I watched about 5-6 races, and it became clear. Many horses had problems loading. A poor horse at Belmont nearly flipped, twice. He got all banged up. The jossling and banging in the gate was bad, but I noticed too that even the horses, as they were being led to the gate, were fired up, foaming at the mouth, kicking, biting the pony, fighting mad. After the race, the lucky ones got into the winners circle. There, they tossed their heads, pulled at the handler, fought and kicked. To me, they just seemed so angry and fired up. At all the tracks. Is that their nature? You would know better than I.

You're basing this on 5-6 races? Small sample, I think. And, exactly which drugs do you think are contributing to the "anger" and fired upedness?

A horse that is foaming at the mouth is not mad - it's salivating and it's not a bad thing. When a horse is excited in a good way, it will pull, dance, and toss their head. These are not signs of angry horses. An angry horse will have it's ears pinned, its tail swishing, etc. What you are describing are eager, fit horses ready to do the job for which they are designed and trained. And, yes, being keyed up and excited for the race is their nature. Being angry is not in their nature, but it is not what you saw, either.

What drug is going to make a horse have trouble loading in the gates? That just doesn't make sense. Trouble loading is most likely a training issue, possibly a gate crew issue and in a few cases a horse that doesn't want to run.

I think you are making wild assumptions on a subject in which you don't have enough knowledge.

[dray33]

Just telling you what I saw. Even with my limited knowledge I could think of a lot of things that could happen to a horse that would make it hard to load. You may call it a wild assumption, I'll call it an observation, and ask questions. I saw a difference between horses in Europe getting ready to race, and ones here. Some agree, others don't. I'll count you on th side of "no difference".

[ArchDandy]

I think more horsemanship is in order...a trainer told me I shouldnt even teach my filly to back..because she would do that at the gate, I told him if she wasnt scared of the gate then she wouldnt. I think trainers dont really break these horses much, they really only know how to go forward, and "slow down". I would be very curious to see how a horse trained with methods like that of pat parelli would fare at the track (maybe they dont expend as much energy due to more manners or something). All I know is within 2 weeks my cranked up filly became a western pleasure look alike as far as attitude, but she to this day knows what it means when you ask for some speed.

[Sock Monkey]

Just telling you what I saw. Even with my limited knowledge I could think of a lot of things that could happen to a horse that would make it hard to load. You may call it a wild assumption, I'll call it an observation, and ask questions. I saw a difference between horses in Europe getting ready to race, and ones here. Some agree, others don't. I'll count you on th side of "no difference".

Um, wait a second. You saw a difference, which is fine and that in and of itself would make a good discussion. But, what you then did was jump to the conclusion that it was because of drugs. I do think that is a wild assumption. I'm pointing out that your assumption is just that - an assumption and not fact. I think it's wild because to anyone that has a good understanding of racing and the drugs we use, it just doesn't even make sense.

The uneducated crusading that takes place on this BB is really getting ridiculous. And, the problem is those of us who have first hand knowledge and experience that can provide factual information are getting so frustrated by it that we don't even have the energy to rebutt.

If anyone cares, ArchDandy makes a good point about training and horsemanship. Although I am not a proponent of Parelli, I do think a little more training would go a long way to making horses more manageable and in the long run, better racehorses.

[KamiBrooks]

I think trainers dont really break these horses much, they really only know how to go forward, and "slow down".

hehehe... 2yo from training ready to race (so had all the breaking, gate, fitting up, etc... at least 5 months of training in his life)... no clue how to hold up his foot to have it picked. I'm guesing he was probably in his first shoes because when you picked up his foot, it was exactly like when you do yearlings for the first time leaning back, etc,etc... a very nice horse, eventually figured it out without problems.. but how can a horse go through 5 months of ANY training and not know how to pick up his feet?

That was some of that $65/day training too. I was almost talked into sending my colt to same center... 2 of 6 showed up with horrible ulcers, another no clue how to pick up foot, all w/rain rot... had I paid for 5 months and got my horse back in that condition, I'd have killed people. Owner thought there was no problem and was happy with their training... why, because they went forward and they stopped and had slightly more finess than a bottle rocket.

[dray33]

Um, wait a second. You saw a difference, which is fine and that in and of itself would make a good discussion. But, what you then did was jump to the conclusion that it was because of drugs. I do think that is a wild assumption. I'm pointing out that your assumption is just that - an assumption and not fact. I think it's wild because to anyone that has a good understanding of racing and the drugs we use, it just doesn't even make sense.

You're looking to pick a fight, so you'll say anything to verify your point. I jumped to no conclusions. I didn't really know, so I asked. What I said, in black and white was: "It's true, drug usage has robbed us of a level playing field... but we have lost something beyond the integrity of the sport. When we took it upon ourselves to medicate these animals, we sacrificed their innate beauty... Maybe I am off here, and maybe my lack of knowledge/experience is leading me to believe something that is really not there. Is there such a dramatic behavioral difference between the two continents, and is race day medication the cause?" I got your opinion sockmonkey. You think it makes no difference. I'm just asking questions, looking for opinions, and drawing my own conclusion.

The uneducated crusading that takes place on this BB is really getting ridiculous. And, the problem is those of us who have first hand knowledge and experience that can provide factual information are getting so frustrated by it that we don't even have the energy to rebutt.

Why do you care? If were a bunch of mis-informed crusaders, why do you care to change our minds? One mans factual information is another mans lies. I believe drugs are ruining the sport. I am sure you know better... but I have a right to my opinion. As do you. You, with your first hand knowledge, are going to deny the fact that drugs are ruining the sport? The USERS admit that drugs are ruining the sport. What exactly are you crusading for?

From drf:
"Dutrow said he would be in favor if veterinarians were barred from the grounds, and said he welcomed a national set of medication rules. In typical Dutrow fashion, though, he bashed many of New York's leading trainers over the years, basically accusing them of cheating. "How does Oscar Barrera go from winning no races for 30 years and then he becomes the best trainer that's ever trained horses in two years, then they stop him and he goes 0 for 140?'' Dutrow said. "The same thing with Gasper Moschera - where's he at? How did he get to be the man in New York by laying carpet, then they stop him and he gets out of the game. Peter Ferriola, Juan Serey. You look at this jerk-off down there, [Gary] Contessa - how does he set records? How does he do it? C'mon, man, if everything is the same playing field, we're going to do as good if not better than anybody."

Even the people who "know better" know better.

[steward]

I watched about 5-6 races, and it became clear. Many horses had problems loading. A poor horse at Belmont nearly flipped, twice. He got all banged up. The jossling and banging in the gate was bad, but I noticed too that even the horses, as they were being led to the gate, were fired up, foaming at the mouth, kicking, biting the pony, fighting mad. After the race, the lucky ones got into the winners circle. There, they tossed their heads, pulled at the handler, fought and kicked. To me, they just seemed so angry and fired up. At all the tracks. Is that their nature? You would know better than I.

You're basing this on 5-6 races? Small sample, I think. And, exactly which drugs do you think are contributing to the "anger" and fired upedness?

A horse that is foaming at the mouth is not mad - it's salivating and it's not a bad thing. When a horse is excited in a good way, it will pull, dance, and toss their head. These are not signs of angry horses. An angry horse will have it's ears pinned, its tail swishing, etc. What you are describing are eager, fit horses ready to do the job for which they are designed and trained. And, yes, being keyed up and excited for the race is their nature. Being angry is not in their nature, but it is not what you saw, either.

What drug is going to make a horse have trouble loading in the gates? That just doesn't make sense. Trouble loading is most likely a training issue, possibly a gate crew issue and in a few cases a horse that doesn't want to run.

I think you are making wild assumptions on a subject in which you don't have enough knowledge.

Excellent post. If only self-appointed experts could be schooled as much as yearlings.