Vote on Curlin's Future

[UmmYeah]

I absolutely agree with Tiz. It is about racing and what races Curlin has left. I will respectfully but strongly disagree with the notion that Curlin has nothing left to prove on dirt. By that logic, Tiger Woods should find a new sport since he has won every major.

I also feel strongly that consistent good performance with occasional excellence will not bring any significant amount of new fans. Basketball became the biggest sport in America in the late '80s and early '90s because of Jordan, and the popularity of the sport took a serious hit when he tried baseball. Golf is more popular than ever now, thanks largely to Tiger. Ernie Els doesn't bring new fans to the sport in droves, and neither does Better Talk Now. But Tiger does, and Curlin certainly could.

[wallinga]

Here's my analogy. Let's look at Babe Ruth. He was a good pitcher, and had he been a pitcher his whole career, he may even have been a hall-of-fame pitcher. But as an outfielder, where he could hit every day, he changed the game. It's all baseball, and he probably would have succeeded wherever he played and done whatever management asked of him, but as a hitter he brought a lot of new fans to the game and helped to elevate it to a new level.

Now I'm not saying that Curlin would have the same impact on racing that the Babe had for baseball. I'm just saying that Curlin on turf is like the Babe pitching--still better than most, but clearly not the best place for him.

if Curlin is as good a horse as you all think he is, give him a go at decent horses on turf. At the moment he's just another Pleasantly Perfect, Skip Away or Silver Charm.

There's nothing to match him on Dirt or Sand, take on the real rest of the world on Turf.

[steward]

I interpret the very existence of such a poll to mean that Jackson didn't hear what he wanted to hear from Asmussen.

If Asmussen had told Jackson that "Curlin did great in the MoW and will improve measurably next time", Curlin's future wouldn't be left up to some goofy internet doodlers. Now Jackson is looking for moral support for his own bias for the Arc, and for some rationale for the bad decision that it will produce.

Jess, go ahead and do it. You know that you want to do it. Just remember, those yokels in the stands can be fickle should things not turn out the way they imagined. I once heard a doofus screaming for Reggie Jackson to bat right-handed.

[TBG]

steward,
I think you are right on the money here. Jackson is trying to justify what HE wants.

[UmmYeah]

Here's my analogy. Let's look at Babe Ruth. He was a good pitcher, and had he been a pitcher his whole career, he may even have been a hall-of-fame pitcher. But as an outfielder, where he could hit every day, he changed the game. It's all baseball, and he probably would have succeeded wherever he played and done whatever management asked of him, but as a hitter he brought a lot of new fans to the game and helped to elevate it to a new level.

Now I'm not saying that Curlin would have the same impact on racing that the Babe had for baseball. I'm just saying that Curlin on turf is like the Babe pitching--still better than most, but clearly not the best place for him.

if Curlin is as good a horse as you all think he is, give him a go at decent horses on turf. At the moment he's just another Pleasantly Perfect, Skip Away or Silver Charm.

There's nothing to match him on Dirt or Sand, take on the real rest of the world on Turf.

You say "if he's as good as I think he is" and then say "there's nothing to match him on dirt or sand." My only point is that, with only a handful of starts left before retirement, I don't think any more of them should be wasted on some noble experiment. If he were a gelding, or if Jackson had already committed to keeping him in training through the end of '09, then great, give him a shot on turf. I think he deserves to go out on top, not by flying thousands of miles to finish mid-pack or worse.

[horsenuts]

There are no real dirt races left of significance with the BCC being on synthetic this year. With that in mind the two top remaining turf races in the US are the Arlington Million and the BCT(both are big stage races and with recognition internationally to the winner).


On dirt Curlin proves nothing winning say the Whitney and Jockey Club Gold Cup as he has 'been there done that already'..... add to that the top dirt horses have never been as weak and beating inferior horses is a collective yawn.


The lone mountain left to climb is turf and I'd opt for US turf racing with the AM followed by the BCT..... so long as he puts up a top showing in the AM. If he runs mediocre in the AM they always have the option of trying the BCC on the synthetic.


As for the Arc........ he simply didn't run a strong enough race in the MoW to head overseas. In addition, the Arc could be a 'bog' on race day where 40-1 shots rule the day and even the top European horses struggle home out of the money. The top turf races here in the US make FAR more sense to me and would add significant value to Curlin should he run big in both. His MoW effort was 'good enough' to give him one more shot on turf state-side....... and the best upcoming race is the AM.

[Tiz]

I'm puzzled by the notion that Curlin "has nothing left to prove", or has one "lone mountain left to climb". It's about competition, meeting the call, taking on all comers. It's isn't a task that can be completed, because it's different every time.

[horsenuts]

I'm puzzled by the notion that Curlin "has nothing left to prove", or has one "lone mountain left to climb". It's about competition, meeting the call, taking on all comers. It's isn't a task that can be completed, because it's different every time.

Curlin has won 3 of the 5 Classic Dirt races in the world over the past 15 months or so (Preakness/BCC/Dubai WC) and ran 2nd and 3rd in the other two(Belmont/Ky Derby). Another win in a G I race such as the Whitney or a repeat win in the JCGC means nothing in regards to his resume as a stallion.... he has all of those he needs.


Jackson is looking to add value as a stud and a major turf win in the AM or BCT would enhance him further. With that said a win in the BCC on a synthetic surface would also boost him as that appeals to breeders and buyers alike so that has to remain a possibility. But as far as straight dirt racing he's put up all he needs to for that. Add to that the weak competition among the current ranks and one can understand why Jackson would be looking for new conquests on different surfaces.

[Tiz]

Consistent toughness, in the highest level of the game, seems like a resume builder to me. Was it extra special that Tiznow won the BCC, or that he won 2 back to back?

[steward]

Those who are advocating a turf future are saying "Curlin did really good for his first time out in the MoW."

Now, using that logic, Jackson should imprint the MoW in the minds of breeders as the yardstick by which he should be judged as a potential turf stud. Let them think that he is better than he showed on that day, and that he is world class material.

That mindset can be destroyed only if he races more on turf and fails, especially if he fails miserably. So why risk both his turf AND overall reputation and head to the Arc? The only reason left is that Jackson's ego needs some extra stroking. It surely isn't for strictly business purposes that he's likely resisting the advice of his professional trainer.

[horsenuts]

Consistent toughness, in the highest level of the game, seems like a resume builder to me. Was it extra special that Tiznow won the BCC, or that he won 2 back to back?

Tiznow never endured a 3 year old campaign like Curlin. What Curlin did as a 3 year old is all but unheard of in recent time and to return to win the Dubai WC as he did was an exclamation point to his toughness and ability. After breaking his maiden as a 3 year old Curlin ran in 8 straight Graded races with the last 6 being Grade Is and 4 of the 6 being Classics. He then went to Dubai and won a prep followed by a smashing performance in the DWC.... only to return state-side and gallop in the Stephen Foster.


Jackson has shown more sportmanship then any owner in recent memory and opted to try Curlin on the turf(and kudos to him for doing so). Curlin ran a decent race and is certainly worthy of one more shot on the turf say in the Arlington Million. Remember, he ran a 'poor' 3rd in the Haskell only to return to Monmouth and handily win the BCC. I wouldn't dismiss Curlin just yet regarding the turf.


Whatever they decide he has been a boon for the sport where it's Champions are all to often molly-coddled and then sent off to stud after a handful of starts.

[steward]

Actually, the way Curlin is being handled now he is the poster boy for the muddle that modern racing/breeding is in. Stuck with the dilemma presented by the BCC being on artificial, the connections are casting around for something appropriate to do. To the point of asking fans how to handle things, a modern development in itself. With a strong eye to the breeding end of the sport, rather than just going out and piling up the best record possible before retiring.

[steward]

Jackson is being lauded for being sporting (which I've agreed with to a point). In other words, he's supposedly doing things unselfishly, not for his own ends. But it's put him in a place where he's all befuddled, and is in need of advice.

So, if that's the case, here is a menu of strategies depending upon what he's aiming for. This menu doesn't include turf races just for the breeding angle, for that would be in the "selfish" or "business" category, rather than "sporting."

1. For the sheer fun of it: go to the Arc. You want to do it and this is best shot that you will ever have. So what if he comes in mid-pack, you had a blast.

2. For the fans: take him to a few places where he ordinarily wouldn't be expected to appear. Boosts interest in the sport - the big venues have been too blase.

3. For the horse's physical welfare: Don't globe trot or go to SA. Park his rump in NY, run in the Whitney and the JCGC. Give him the best chance to succeed.

4. For the horse's reputation: Pick a suitable dirt race to win and retire him. It fits with the aims of #3 too.

[wallinga]

That mindset can be destroyed only if he races more on turf and fails, especially if he fails miserably. So why risk both his turf AND overall reputation and head to the Arc?

that's it... his overall reputation is that he's the best dirt horse in the world. As only about three of the world's top ten races are on dirt, and he's won two, why not give him a go at taking on good horses?

I'd love to see Curlin clash with Zarkava and maybe The Duke. it's not a turf issue, it's proving to people outside of the US that he actually is the best in the world. In order to prove that he has to compete against the best.

Don't bother trying him in the Arlington Million, a top class turf horse hasn't won it in years, give him a go in the Arc, then back him up in the BC (Classic or Turf)

[BenB]

I,d love to see him run in the arc, the track will be soft by than.
Most of the times it is soft.
I think he will be suited by the soft gooiing.